grape seed extract + vitamin C increases blood pressure?

[unclebob]

I just saw a blurb on the Rosacea News blog about grape seed and vitamin C combined may increase blood pressure.

See this pubmed for an abstract.

That seems strange to me. Maybe stronger blood vessels lead to higher pressure? And what about "markers of oxidative damage were not significantly altered"; no antioxidant now? Has anyone read the full article?

[fanta]

Well, I have also had my doubts about the effect of grape seed extract, pycnogenol and many other supplements. I think messing with blood vessels is a bad idea long term. I think that fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains have some very unique properties, with multiple complex enzymes acting as natural absorption enhancers for minerals, vitamins and unique antioxidants - you have to watch out for only filling up with certain antioxidants and forget about other antioxidants, long term it could be counterproductive. Research on vitamin E has shown this and I think many other studies could confirm this for ohter supplements in the future. I will try GliSODin - but its not something Ill take in year 2007, at that time I think that Ester C might be the only thing left cause vitamin C is something the body is very effective at flushing out, so its difficult to take too much of it - however fruits are loaded with vitamin C, so not even necessary

[fanta]

Originally Posted by unclebob

I just saw a blurb on the Rosacea News blog about grape seed and vitamin C combined may increase blood pressure.

See this pubmed for an abstract.

That seems strange to me. Maybe stronger blood vessels lead to higher pressure? And what about "markers of oxidative damage were not significantly altered"; no antioxidant now? Has anyone read the full article?

Blood pressure must increase cause gse constricts some main blood vessels, this is actually an alarming info. You really cant take a pill and then see a significantly altered oxidative stress. Italians probably have less oxidative stress, but this explained by genes, 100s, 1000s of substances in their food as well as life stile. The whole antioxidant thing is somewhat hype, you live longer from a balanced life with sport, sex, good relations and a healthy diet.

My grandparents in Rome are both 90 and they can go visit my father in Sardeny without any problems. Its cause they eat healthy and have lived a healthy life. If I visit them they stuff me with broccoli, pasta, rice, blah blah blah. If I want a hamburger its cooked in the owen cause this is healthier, no need to fry everything on a pan so you get cancer. Be holistic about what you eat and live and youll do fine.
Ipls, antibiotics, accutane and right skin care seem to be much more effective - they have more side effects than the supplements but they are the only things that can beat the inflammatory cycle. Also, its waste of time ordering things every month - better get something that work big time and then relax about this disease

[drnase]

Hi UncleBob,

This is one where you scratch your head and say, huh. It was interesting to read that one abstract, but I would not worry about this effect. Remember that they split up one small group of patients into four tiny groups that are hard to correlate statistical significance when comparing 4 tiny groups of hypertensive patients completely off their medications. In general, you dont start looking for a trend until you see 7 large scale studies from 7 different medical universities. Thats the general baseline to meet the academic criteria. Interesting abstract though.

Now, if you look at the 70 plus studies performed by naturopathic doctors, I dont think I have ever seen it mentioned anywhere about this effect and all of these doctors recommend the combination of these two products for synergy and to allow vitamin C to be "reusable". So, that standard has been set already. I would not jump to any conclusions.

Regarding the oxidative stress, that is one part where they certainly didi not measure in the proper area. They were measuring in a blood vessel in the arm -- for hypertension you measure blood vessels around the heart and for rosacea sufferers you would measure it in the blood vessels of the face -- oxidative stress primarly occurs only where the disease syndrome is, so measuring a blood vessel in the arm is not relevant.

On a lighter note, it would be nice to see more time spent sending the supporters of the RRF, which I am one of through donations, a word or sentence about this "excellent grant" that continues to elude us. Just a couple words is all the supporters are looking for. Thank you.

[David Pascoe]

I have asked Dr. Natalie Ward to respond to the comments on her paper. This is her response

The findings from our study were seen in treated hypertensives with additional cardiovascular risk factors. Although we don't know the mechanism involved for the blood pressure increase, we are suggesting that people should use caution when considering taking these supplements. This research has been published in a peer-reviewed journal following a rigorous review process.

Dr. Natalie Ward

[drnase]

Originally Posted by David Pascoe

I have asked Dr. Natalie Ward to respond to the comments on her paper. This is her response

As I mentioned, interesting study. Something to follow. But, this is just one single study using four very small groups with extensive pathology. It certainly requires more studies to come to any sort of conclusion.

Both supplements have been shown for 20 years to have significant anti-platelet aggregation actions (helps prevent heart attacks and strokes better than aspirin) and usually have a synergistic effect. They also lower blood pressure in most pathophysiological conditions. Diabetics and hypertensive patients at IU School of Medicine are encouraged to take both of these products by Cardiologists and Diabetologists who treat their patients with medications and supplements.

If more studies do indeed show this pattern than that would have greater implications -- people would be cautioned against combining red wine, grape juice, dark juices and vitamin C.

I would be interested in finding out how Dr. Ward published the same material in two different journals (you can only submit your material to one journal). They published this same exact study two years ago, unless I am mistaken. Looks like the same 69 individuals and results. Did she mention anything about this?

Asia Pac J Clin Nutr. 2003;12 Suppl:S18.

Effects of vitamin C and grape-seed polyphenols on blood pressure in treated hypertensive individuals: results of a randomised double blind, placebo-controlled trial.



David, we would all be very interested to hear about the grant -- does it address redness, flushing, papules, pustules or some other factors? Thank you.

[fanta]

..

[Chris23]

Interesting read, I also saw this article http://rosacea.iinet.net.au/news/200...increases.html.

Might explain why I experenced increased redness after taking Pycnogenol & Grape Seed Extract for a couple of weeks.

[fanta]

just dont take them together, wait a couple of hours. In general you should not mix everything - you rarely drink redwine with fresh fruits so why on earth should you combine grape seed extract and vitamin C? - like drinking champagne with hot dogs, or putting ketchup on your donuts - Its wrong and disgusting!

[fanta]

Originally Posted by fanta

...you rarely drink redwine with fresh fruits...

Actually Im wrong, the Spaniards drink Sangria (red wine punch) but this is wrong