Low Level Red Light Therapy (Acnelamp Red) Update

[IowaDavid]

Hi all. Just wanted to give you an update of how the red light therapy is going. Currently, I'm doing between 15-20 minutes twice a day (morning and night). Interestingly, I backed off on my treatment times for a few days (cut back to around 15 to 20 minutes total each day) and I noticed I was getting more redness. Now that I've been trying to be good about doing at least 30 minutes a day and up to 40 a day, my redness and propensity toward flushing has receded a bit.
As I'm sure most of the US residents know, it's basically hot everywhere lately. I was able to go do errands out in heat in the mid '90s the past couple of days. Now, this was not prolonged activity outside (though I did grill last night), but it was walking through the hot parking lot, carrying things back to the car, etc. Just being able to make brief forays out in this kind of weather without flushing is quite encouraging.
Another thing I've noticed is that in my flush zone, generally it's a mix of "standing" redness and permanent redness (telangiectasia, diffuse redness). Since I've been using the lamp, the "standing" redness is receding so that my skin around the permanent redness and telangiectasia fades to pale/very light pink and makes for a stronger juxtaposition between my skin tone and the permanent redness. In this sense, I can more clearly see what--most likely--cannot be treated by any other means aside from thermal, in-office laser treatments.
I'm quite pleased with how this is working out. I've been a fairly laser-resistant case, so this is really nice to find something that speeds recovery up and helps to contain flushing.
I'd like to clarify--just because this light source is called an "Acnelamp" does not mean that it is necessarily for acneform lesions. They market it for acne. But if you ask for an all-red unit, you're not really treating the acneform lesions (though it may help) for the rosacea. The point of red light, from my understanding, is to reduce inflammation and stimulate healing/building new cells (someone please step in if they'd like--I still don't know how to explain exactly what this light source does for rosacea).

Anyway, wanted to update the group. I'm seeing steady progress and it's very nice to find something that clearly benefits my condition beyond meds (clonidine and clarithromycin can only do so much) and works with in-office laser treatments.

David

[Bihbicat]

Thanks for keeping us posted David. Did you ever find out for sure whether it's okay for us to be using these lamps in the two weeks after an IPL/laser tx? I've asked around but not been able to get an answer on it. I assume it's okay but would really love to know for sure. In the meantime though I'll keep on with it. I'm doing 20 mins twice a day -- hope it's not too much but it's more convenient for me that way.

[IowaDavid]

I can't comment on this with any definitive, informed answer. I don't understand the biology or physics of this technology enough to do so.

I am using red light therapy between my laser appointments, as Kristen had said it was all right for her. The last treatment I had (though it was with low-energy settings on the gemini laser), I started using the acnelamp the next day. No problems at all.

In my anecdotal experience, the red light therapy only helps and calms things down. But, I think we're sort of on the fringe of combining these treatments. I'm happy to be a guinea pig so long as I don't see my condition worsening over the course of a week or so with consistent lamp use.

Please do share your experiences, though. I'm trying to learn about this as much as you are, I'd guess. :)

David

[Bihbicat]

Hi David, I've never noticed any problem or worsening from using the lamp right after and between IPL/laser tx but what I'm worried about is whether doing so will somehow inhibit the destruction of the vessels that have been hit during the tx and that we'd like to see the last of and there's just no way one can tell that from looking at one's face as it would result, simply, in a less effective IPL/laser tx and this is the tricky bit -- how do you know if it's less effective than it might have been? Anyway, as you say we are clearly limited by our theoretical understanding here. I don't even bother contacting the lamp people to ask as I know they'll go blank when I say "rosacea" and "IPL/ laser". Oh well, onward and upward with the routine unless advised or proven otherwise I guess!

[Adam]

Dear group:

Hi. I can't find the "original" Acne Lamp all-red topic, lots of helpful information there. Please kindly tell me why the whole topic thread was deleted. No illegal :-) or harmful ingredients there :-)

Adam

[IowaDavid]

http://forum.rosaceagroup.org/viewtopic.php?t=25&start=0

[IowaDavid]

Bhibicat--I don't know if the red light would inhibit the destruction of treated vessels. It seems that if a vessel is treated properly, the light would just speed up the removal of dead/treated tissue. Currently, I'm using my lamp after the gemini treatment I got earlier this week, and it's clearly helping with the post-treatment redness. But, as you mentioned, we don't have any good way to find out what the effective of red light therapy is after treatments. And yes, the acnelamp people are pretty much worthless. ;)

One thing, though: Dr. Soldo mentioned that flushing and inflammation post-treatment are responsible for angiogenesis while you're healing up. In this regard, the I know the lamp is helping with swelling and redness, and some flushing. So...whether or not this is a sign it's helping or not, I don't know. I guess I'll just have to guinea-pig myself out for a couple of more treatments in the coming months.

David

[Adam]

Thanks very much David!

I overlooked "page 1 of 3" so I could not find it as it's on page 2.

Have a cool weekend.

Adam


http://forum.rosaceagroup.org/viewtopic.php?t=25&start=0

[irishgenes]

I have been meaning to read the red light threads for some time, but have not yet gotten around to it. The idea seemed intriguing. Recently I saw a series of emails that Dr. Nase had written privately to Peter, which Peter posted on here. Dr. Nase was heaping scorn on the idea of these lights being of any use, in effect calling them quackery. Well, the thread was deleted, as I think the moderators sensed trouble brewing! I don't know if any of you got a chance to read that thread before it disappeared, but it caused me to hesitate about buying one of these lights. I just don't know what to think now.

[kat]

Irishgenes - Please help me out, I'm not sure if I understand you. You said you're "intrigued" with the positive results Peter and others have had with the red lamp and because of this you were considering making a purchase. But, now you're having second thoughts because Nase said it was "quackery?" He only said that to Peter in private emails. He posted the promise of it helping on the message board. That's a contradiction if I ever heard one and makes me wonder about Nase's intentions. Why would he say such things? Besides, plenty of people have posted their own experiences with supplements etc and I just don't understand why Nase would be trying to confuse people like you and me if Peter is showing good results.

Kat

[IowaDavid]

I'm just offering my experiences with red light therapy over the past couple of months, in conjunction with in-office laser treatments. I don't understand how red light at this wavelength affects skin, or more specifically, rosacea skin. I can, however, say that since I've been using it, I've been making marked progress.

David

[irishgenes]

Kat, I am as confused as you are... In the past, Dr. Nase has gotten infuriated over people suggesting that Demodex mites might have anything at all to do with rosacea. (I would like to think they don't, as the idea of those critters living on my face is repulsive to say the least.) But then later I read on the Yahoo group where he seemed to have changed his mind and allowed as to how there might be something to this theory in some people. I don't think he has any bad motives at all, but just is very, very convinced that he is right about something until he sees evidence to the contrary, and then he will change his mind. But I am not sure what his most recent opinion on these red lamps is. I do respect his opinions. Even if he is not always 100% right about everything, he sure knows more than I do.

[Angelina]

I have just purchased a lamp, how long was it before you saw any improvement in your skin?

Thanks

[Peter]

Hello Kat / David & others

If any of you need my help on using red light then you are welcome to e mail me privately. I am not going to post on the Forum about this due to the problems today.

Kat and David have my address but I would ask them not to band it around to anybody.

Good luck

Peter

[drnase]

Kat, I am as confused as you are... In the past, Dr. Nase has gotten infuriated over people suggesting that Demodex mites might have anything at all to do with rosacea. (I would like to think they don't, as the idea of those critters living on my face is repulsive to say the least.) But then later I read on the Yahoo group where he seemed to have changed his mind and allowed as to how there might be something to this theory in some people. I don't think he has any bad motives at all, but just is very, very convinced that he is right about something until he sees evidence to the contrary, and then he will change his mind. But I am not sure what his most recent opinion on these red lamps is. I do respect his opinions. Even if he is not always 100% right about everything, he sure knows more than I do.


Hello Irish Genes,

There are two areas where I should have been more clear about.

The demodex mites 5 years ago where the hit of the parade. But the studies where all done in Turkey or third world countries where demodecosis is commonly found. Plus the few studies that purely counted numbers could not come to any conclusion. So, 5 years ago there was no evidence to suggest demodex had any involvement and thus at that time period, this was the conclusion of the rosacea experts in the field which I relayed.

However, as a biomedical researcher, we are always reading and following the progress of medicine. Finally this year several papers showed that when treated with an oral drug that only killed demodex, some where helped. So, I amended my statement to follow the most recent information. Still not a major player, but may have some secondary roles. In science, this is not a contradiction, this is presentation of new information that sheds some more light on the role with better studies. If I did not present this new information then I would be a bad scientist.

Without interrupting this group, I have always enjoyed your posts Irishgenes and thus I am responding very professionally to the next subject. I did not contradict myself on this system -- I stated that the professional medical models ($15,000 to $20,000) have shown clear evidence that it helps many patients; however, I never commented on the condensed $200 version and its abiliity. When you take a professional medical grade model and condense it down in size, it does lose a lot of strength, healing ability, penetration of light and a whole myriad of other changes. But, I will stop there as I dont want to disrupt this thread.

This post was just to answer IrishGenes questions as to what I meant and if there were changes that I made in my mind. That is all. I hope that clears things up IrishGenes.

[Peter]

Hello Irishgenes

If you talk to Kat or David they will give you my private e mail address if you want to hear my version of red light or ask any questions. I have successfully been using it for 7 years now to treat my rosacea so I do no a little about it's effect.

Give me a couple of days to get back to you though as I am curently trying to get rid of all the rubbish that has accumulated on my computer these last few weeks.

If you ask any person who has contacted me regarding red light they will tell you that I have never given them any guarantees that it will definitely help them or given them false hopes as I was accused of yesterday. Like everything with rosacea it's a matter of trial and error to discover which is the best treatment for your particular case. I took a gamble 7 years ago because I thought it would help me and I was proved right.

There are 2 sources to try either infra-red or LED. I use infra-red but there is plenty of evidence out there from individuals reporting back that either source can help. I know one severe sufferer who is using both types of light source in combination with laser and she believes that they are helping her maintain the imrovement she gets from the laser.

I have never seen any reports from clinical trials regarding the use of red light for rosacea sufferers. A formal clinical trial with various rosacea patients using a LED lamp is due to take place in London soon so it will be interesting to see what the verdict is.

The lamp I use retails at around £200 here in the UK which I suppose with freight would be $400 plus to you.

I will send you a PM containing my pulled post from earlier in the week which caused all the fuss. Again you will have to make your own mind up on the contents.

Good luck

Peter

[Peter]

Hello

I still keep in contact with some people on the RS group and despite what someone who will remain nameless said earlier, there are still a fair number of interesting messages being posted. Again I have mentioned sometimes it's quality rather than quantity which is important.

Here is a link posted to a success story using the Dermalux LED.

http://forum.rosaceagroup.org/viewtopic.php?p=5784#5784

So again don't listen to everything you read from those who don't know because there are success stories out there.

Thanks

Peter

[irishgenes]

Thank you very much, Dr. Nase. Yes, that does clarify things in my mind. Due to the cost of the machine and the time I would have to spend sitting in front of it, I will pass on the home model of red lamps for now. (Peter, I will read what you and others have said about them, because I like to keep an open mind, but I will probably wait for the clinical trial results. The problem with people saying something has helped their rosacea is complicated by the fact that rosacea tends to wax and wane a lot depending on multiple factors.)

Dr. Nase, it is also reassuring to know that I most likely do not have hordes of demodex mites burrowing into my face! That website where they show a video close-up of mites moving around & chomping away is quite horrifying, which I guess is the intention, so that people will rush to buy their products.

I agree that a good scientist changes his mind when the evidence warrants it, instead of clinging to an old hypothesis. I did not say that you were contradicting yourself. I meant to imply that you had changed your mind due to new evidence, only I wasn't sure what evidence had changed your mind or what your current opinion is on these two topics. When I said, "I don't think he has any bad motives at all", I was explaining to kat because she had questioned your intentions. I never questioned your motives or believed that you were intentionally trying to confuse people. Perhaps I should have expressed myself better. I apologize for any misunderstanding that may have occurred.

P.S. Dr. Nase, when you say that you are "responding very professionally" to someone, does that mean you are mad at them, or what? :?

[drnase]

Irish Genes,

Good question actually. When I say I am responding professionally, that means that I take out almost all emotion and try to respond with logic and facts. If I wanted to respond as Jeff Nase, I would respond with both emotions and logic, but emotions often get in the way.

[irishgenes]

Ah, yes, but when you eliminate all emotion to "respond very professionally" to someone, it makes that someone wonder if the reason you are supressing emotion is that you are angry.

[drnase]

Ah, yes, but when you eliminate all emotion to "respond very professionally" to someone, it makes that someone wonder if the reason you are supressing emotion is that you are angry.


Irish,

Good point. Remember that emotions is what makes humans great and not so great. Happiness, love, anger, hatred. These are all emotions. Of course I am upset at a few people spreading lies, but the prudent strategy is to remove the anger from the message -- just logic and facts.

In fact there are so few involved in the debunking site that only one main person writes. The famous alias John Craig. Now John Craig writes strictly off of emotions with no logic or facts. So, there is an example of the other side of the coin:

Documents in debunkingnase edited in the last 7 days:

Label Editor Last Edit

Faulty Medical Advice John Craig: Aug 7, 2005 | 10:32 AM
Court Case Schmourt Case John Craig: Aug 7, 2005 | 8:33 AM
Court Case Schmourt Case John Craig: Aug 7, 2005 | 1:03 AM
Court Case Schmourt Case :Initial Version Aug 7, 2005 | 12:39 AM
debunkingnase John Craig: Aug 7, 2005 | 12:38 AM
The Websites Demise and Legal Intimidation John Craig: Aug 2, 2005 | 10:49 AM
Who We Are And Why We Are Here John Craig: Aug 2, 2005 | 10:46 AM
debunkingnase John Craig: Aug 2, 2005 | 10:44 AM
Other Contradictions John Craig: Aug 2, 2005 | 9:14 AM
Round the Boards John Craig: Aug 2, 2005 | 9:05 AM
debunkingnase John Craig: Aug 2, 2005 | 9:04 AM
debunkingnase : Aug 1, 2005 | 3:08 PM
Professional Qualifications of Geoffrey Nase : Aug 1, 2005 | 2:33 PM
The Websites Demise and Legal Intimidation John Craig: Aug 1, 2005 | 12:08 AM
The Websites Demise and Legal Intimidation :Initial Version Aug 1, 2005 | 12:01 AM
debunkingnase John Craig: Aug 1, 2005 | 12:01 AM
debunkingnase : Jul 31, 2005 | 11:59 PM


Dont you agree that if everyone posted while they were angry, this would be a non-existent board. And when John Craig has his/her day in court soon, you bet he/she will show much emotion at the end of the trial.

[Peter]

Geoffrey

This was a red light thread so it would be very much appreciated if we could leave it at that and not use it as a soap box for your debunking problems.

Thanks

Peter

[drnase]

Pete,

Yes, that was a bit off topic, but I was answering a question from Irish Genes about emotions, posts and also included an example. As you know, sometimes even the best threads go off topic for one or two posts to answer a specific question.

[irishgenes]

Dr. Nase, I understand what you are saying, but I just hope you aren't mad at ME!

To get back to the topic, Peter, I once read a book by John Ott called "Health & Light" (1973). He did time-lapse photography for Walt Disney-- those slow-motion pictures of flowers opening. He founded the Environmental Health & Light Institute, and lately I have noticed some "Ott lamps" for sale in sewing notions catalogs because he was a firm believer in the value of full-spectrum light. (I don't know if he is still alive.) He demonstrated in studies how cells exposed to red light suffered a weakening and rupturing of their walls, especially noticeable in the heart cells of chicken embryos. He did a lot of experiments on mice exposed to different light spectrums, and I got this from a website:
"Under pink fluorescent light, the mice lived an average of 7.5 months,
· Under cool white (standard office) fluorescents, the mice lived 8.2 months,
· Under full spectrum fluorescents with balanced, trace ultraviolet, they lived 15.6 months, and
· Under natural sunlight, they lived 16.1 months."

I remember when I read this book 20 years ago, I tossed out my rose-tinted glasses! Now, he was using fluorescent lamps of various types available back then, not medical devices. So maybe these home red light devices could have an effect on you, but I am not sure the effect would be good. Of course, you aren't living under the lights all the time like the mice; you just sit in front of them for a short while.

Peter, I think you have the wrong link for the Dermalux LED success story, or at least I couldn't find anything about Dermalux on that thread.

[nikkitn]

I don't mean to change subjects...but about demodex...since I HATE all species of bugs, I am also terrified of the possibility that these little creatures are all over my face. I realize that they are not the cause of rosacea but CAN make things worse. How would you know if you had them?? Just try the oral meds and see how things go?

[AnSl90]

Do you travel with the lamp? (mine hasn't arrived yet so I don't really know the size) How does that work? Thanks, Annie

[IowaDavid]

I took it with me out of town two weekends ago. It's like a desk lamp size, about.

[AnSl90]

Oh, did the lamp need special packaging or did you just stuff it in your bag? Annie

[IowaDavid]

I just wrapped the heads in a towel to cushion them a bit. I wouldn't put it in a bag, unless I packed it in there with the support of a towel so it wouldn't get jolted around. It's a pretty sturdy thing, though. You don't have to be uber careful with it.

[IowaDavid]

Just an update on this.
My homemade LED array (see the photos forum) is working fairly nicely. I'm still working on angles and distance, though as my father owns a camera shop, I was able to snag a light meter from him and measure the footcandles of the commercial LED model at 6 inches distance and approximate that same energy at a given distance from the three "tower" arrays that I built.

I also posted a small photo of my after my laser treatment a week ago. I had some pretty decent red welts and flushing from that--I actually have 4 areas of scabbing (3 in my ear, one on my chin), and the raised red welts didn't go away for 3 days or so, so it was a pretty aggressive treatment and I'm not going to do that again.

However, the LED light is working quite nicely for suppressing my post-treatment flushing and I'd just like to share my experience here. I'm a very big supporter of red LED therapy for this disease as I have seen the difference it's been making on my condition. I would recommend building your own system, though--it's not too difficult and not too expensive and you can get total face and ear coverage (for about $400 US less than commercial models of similar strength, but more limited coverage).

But, make _sure_ you measure the energy you're putting on your face--too much is not helpful.

David

[IowaDavid]

Update:

I've since moved myself closer to the arrays, so I'm now at ~ 18 inches from the side arrays and ~ 24 inches or so from the middle array. I'm nothing but pleased with this treatment modality. It is a slow, cumulative process, but repeated, regular sessions (daily or twice daily) has been making a clear dent in my flushing and pushing back my trigger threshold for heat, social situations, physical exertion, etc.

I'm noticing more now that my first response to heat/exertion will be to sweat rather than flush--though this is by no means regular, or even the majority of the time; it is happening more often, however--and this is a huge improvement from someone that had to keep himself literally on the verge of shivering for most of my waking hours 18 months ago.

Not all of this progress is due to the red light therapy, of course. I haven't been using any skincare products (no cumulative irritation), have been using clarithromycin, and am getting some decent, albeit uneven (polka-dotted), treatments with the gemini laser.

However, the rapidity of my progress, and the paleness/calmness in my face after a session with the red light lead me to believe it has been a major factor in my progress in the last several months. Also, it really helps you bounce back from in-office laser treatment side effects (I had welts all over my face after my last treatment--even on my forehead, outside my flush zone, there were clear red welts a bit smaller than dimes; I recovered quite quickly from this, though--quicker than I have from past, lower-energy treatment side effects from the same laser).

I'll continue to experiment with energy levels, etc. with the red light. I'm ordering some more LEDs to rig up and I'll see if an increased light output is beneficial or harmful. I'll continue to update the forum, too.

Essentially, if I had a friend who had rosacea, that was struggling with it, and who wasn't responding to in-office laser treatments to the extent that they had hoped for, I would strongly recommend using low-level red light therapy as an adjunctive treatment. It's not a cure-all, and it's a gradual process, but, after 6 months of using it regularly, I'm _extremely_ impressed with the addition it has made to my treatment regimen.

David