angiogenesis-inhibitors other then the antibiotics

[nataljaoo]

Hi all,

I'm planning for new IPL treatments in the Us this year after not such a good treatment last year. My flushing and burning got worse from it and according to some derms I saw afterwards it might have be due to angiogenesis.
My problem: antibiotics make my skin very red and flushed. All of them. I tried the following antibioitcs:

*doxycycline (for 3 months, very red face all that time, better before and after use- took some time afterwards to get back to the way it was).

*minocycline (2 weeks, idem).

*metronidazol (for one month. Idem.)

*Clarithromycin (Biaxin, for 2/3 weeks, idem).

*Azithromycin (4 months, 500 mg. a week. The first 3 days after using it much more red, getting beeter towards the last days, but still much more red and flushed then without this med.)


My concern is: antibiotics, especially the macrolides, are highly adviced when undergoing IPL to prevent or inhibit neogenesis. But staying unflushed after IPL is as well. If I take these antibiotics I will definitely get more red and inflamed, but I didn't take them while and after having my first IPL and neogenesis actually seems to have taken place.

Is there another way of inhibiting neogenesis/ angiogenesis/ new bloodvessel formation?

Best wishes, Natalja


Had one IPL treatment, currently using 3 x a day 0,2 mg. moxonidine, takes Esther C and grape seed extract.

[prryjones]

Hi Natalja,
Two topicals are possibilites: imiquimod (Aldara) and calipotriene (Dovonex).
My derm gave me a script for Aldara, and I'm gonna try it (I'm not sure if anyone has, yet, concerning rosacea).
There is also considerable evidence that Cox 2 inhibitors (Celebrex) inhibit angiogenesis. Good luck,
Perry

[nimbuszero]

I would seriously suggest not putting aldara on your face. An idiot of a dermatologist diagnosed me with warts (which I later found out was balantis) and gave me a prescription for aldara. After a few weeks, the area of application was in worse condition than ever (peeling, redness).

[prryjones]

Hello,
Yes, if you read drug insert (which anyone who takes meds should do to learn of and be aware of the potential side effects), you will see irritation listed as a somwhat common side effect. You will also see irritation noted as a potential side effect in almost every other topical med made.
Aldara, indicated for genital warts, is formulated with the idea to be put on the genitals, THE most sensitive area of the body, concerning potential for skin irritation. The face is no. 2 (a rosacea face is probably no. 1).
Anyway, I know of one who used Aldara on the face for 3 mos. He also experienced increased redness, but no irritation.
Point is, aldara is a known angio inhibitor, but maybe, for our needs, the dosage regimen may need to be adjusted to lessen irritation (eg 1xweek, instead of 3xweek).
Because it irritates one part of the body on a given regimen does not necessarily indicate that the same result will be achieved given another regimen on a different part of the body.
I am going to try it, as trying it is the only way for the data to be accumulated. I will let the forum know how it turns out.
Perry

[snwbdrloco84]

Hey Perry,

If you know any more information, could you talk about why Celebrex could be used as an angiogenesis inhibitor?

Thanks,
Ray

[prryjones]

Hi Ray,
I believe over 300 substances have been discovered to have anti-angiogenic properties. There are a few (you can see them for yourself) that are naturally occuring, but are poorly absorbed by either the the gut or skin.
The first (only, I think) drug so far FDA approved as an AI (cancer) is bevacizumab (Avastin), being a protein drug, has to be infused dir. into a vein. As a protein, it would be quickly metabolized by the gut if taken orally. It's a start, I guess.
In any case, check out the two links (and there are many, many informative sites concerning angio inhibitors on the web:

http://newscenter.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/developments/anti-angio-table
http://www.angio.org/providers/dermatology/dermatology.html

Again, the information is all over the web....
Thanks,
Perry

[nataljaoo]

Hey Perry,

Thanks for your suggestions. I can't have anything on my skin, even the mildest moisturizers, so those toppicals sound very scary to me. I have used Celebrex for a couple of months but, again, sigh, I got very red from it. I will check other angionesis-inhibitors though, thanks for the suggestion!
Natalja

[prryjones]

Hi Natalja,
As you probably have seen, genistein (soy isoflavone) and curcumin are naturally occuring AIs.
Also, soy is thought to minimize hot flashes post menopause (idea originated in Japan -- the Japanese eat a lot of soy based products and the women rarely report post menopausal hot flashes).
Also, curcumin is not very well absorbed.
Anyway, two ideas....
Perry

[Bihbicat]

Perry, or anyone else -- I recall Dr Nase saying that Blash Cohosh and Soy something or other were also good for regulating hormonal flushing. So, I'd be interested in the Soy stuff if it would both help the hormonal side of things and help stop regrowth after tx, but does anyone know of a good brand and what kind of dosage one would need to take to achieve results on both counts? Also, I haven't pursued Black Cohosh cause I've heard it's bad for the liver and I have a compromised liver, but I assume the Soy stuff would be okay, yes?

[prryjones]

Hi Cat,
When I mentioned menopause, I was actually referring to the hormonal changes and fluctuations that accompany menopause.
The information is all over the place. Here is an abstract of a recently published article, but as you will see, there are many.
Do a Google search and you will most likely find dosing regimens.
Soy is in everything from protein powder to wafers. Completely harmless and nutritional for most, unless you have an allergy to soybeans.
Perry

: South Med J. 2005 Mar;98(3):319-26. Related Articles, Links
Integrative therapies for menopause.

McKee J, Warber SL.

Family Medicine Department, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, TX 77555-1123, USA. jmckee@utmb.edu

Menopause is a transitional time for women. This gives practitioners an opportunity to focus on recommending healthy life-style changes. Hormone replacement therapy (HRT) has been the mainstay of therapy for menopausal symptoms. With recent research findings, women and their physicians are seeking alternatives that do not carry the risks associated with HRT. Exercise has been shown to help some women with symptoms of hot flashes, as have relaxation techniques and deep breathing. Dietary changes to incorporate whole foods and soy are thought by some to help with menopausal symptoms, and are recommended because of a positive impact on heart disease and obesity; soy isoflavones may also help with menopausal symptoms. Botanicals such as black cohosh and red clover have been shown in some studies to decrease severity and frequency of hot flashes. We recommend that HRT be prescribed when other measures have failed to adequately control symptoms. Bioidentical hormones are preferred in our practice.

[prryjones]

Hi,
The abstract below is but one of many dealing with the AI properties of genistein. Just one study...but there are many more. read the last sentence. I especially like the "low molecular weight"..this mean that it might be made into a topical.
The Nat'l Cancer Institute is currently doing one study concerning the above...check out the link:

http://newscenter.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/developments/anti-angio-table

Br J Nutr. 2005 Mar;93(3):317-23. Related Articles, Links


Novel tempeh (fermented soyabean) isoflavones inhibit in vivo angiogenesis in the chicken chorioallantoic membrane assay.

Kiriakidis S, Hogemeier O, Starcke S, Dombrowski F, Hahne JC, Pepper M, Jha HC, Wernert N.

Institute of Pathology, University of Bonn, Bonn, Germany. s.kiriakidis@imperial.ac.uk

Anti-angiogenic strategies are emerging as an important tool for the treatment of cancer and inflammatory diseases. In the present investigation we isolated several isoflavones from a tempeh (fermented soyabean) extract. The isolated isoflavones were identified as 5,7,4'-trihydroxyisoflavone (genistein), 7,4'-dihydroxyisoflavone (daidzein), 6,7,4'-trihydroxyisoflavone (factor 2), 7,8,4'-trihydroxyisoflavone (7,8,4'-TriOH) and 5,7,3',4'-tetrahydroxyisoflavone (orobol). The effects on angiogenesis of these isoflavones were evaluated in the chicken chorioallantoic membrane assay; their capacity to inhibit vascular endothelial growth factor-induced endothelial cell proliferation and expression of the Ets 1 transcription factor, known to be implicated in the regulation of new blood vessel formation, were also investigated. We found that all isoflavones inhibited angiogenesis, albeit with different potencies. Compared with negative controls, which slightly inhibited in vivo angiogenesis by 6.30 %, genistein reduced angiogenesis by 75.09 %, followed by orobol (67.96 %), factor 2 (56.77 %), daidzein (48.98 %) and 7,8,4'-TriOH (24.42 %). These compounds also inhibited endothelial cell proliferation, with orobol causing the greatest inhibition at lower concentrations. The isoflavones also inhibited Ets 1 expression, providing some insight into the molecular mechanisms of their action. Furthermore, the chemical structure of the different isoflavones suggests a structure-activity relationship. Our present findings suggest that the new isoflavones might be added to the list of low molecular mass therapeutic agents for the inhibition of angiogenesis.PMID: 15877870 [PubMed - in process]

Enjoy,
Perry

[Bihbicat]

Intereing Perry, thanks. But they say "new" and we wouldn't know how to identify those right? Plus, I didn't see anything about dosages or did I just miss it? So, back to the original question, is there nothing more established than this apart from anti-biotics that will do the job?

[prryjones]

Hi,
Well, to be sure...most of these AI's are still being tested and evaluated.
Anyway...you can eat as much as you like and hope for the best.
Right now...the only topical drug that has AI properties, that I know of, is imiquimod (aldara).
Dr. Nase may know of some other molecules, I'm not sure. He hasn't mentioned any that I'm aware of.
Perry
I think a pertinent question to ask for one not responding to correctly applied IPL/laser txs is whether the vessels are actually being destroyed in the first place, or are the txs working but the vasculature is quickly being regenerated? How to tell....that is the question....shakespeare.