Importance of OPC - Grape Seed extract

[diger_diga]

Hello,
Who would absolutely advocate the use of grape seed extract (oligomeric proanthocyanidins) for rosacea.
Is it right that you get less sensitive or the wall of the vessels gets much more stable :-/

[drnase]

Hello Diga,

As a microvascular specialist who dealt with all types of vascular disorders, the clinical and experiemental research on all vascular disorders that include chronic dilation, damage to the vascular wall, increased capillary permeability, fragility of capillaries, angiogenesis and a myraid of other problems....... grape seed extract and pycnogenol are the only two OPC products to show major beneficial changes in the above mentioned symptoms. So, absolutely. I live by these.

Now, has there ever been a study on rosacea and OPC''s? NO.

Will there ever be a study on rosacea and OPC's? NO

But, in science and medicine, we often extrapolate from other vascular disorders with similar blood vessel pathololgy and get the ball rolling that way.

Anecdotal, but important. During my initial stages of severe rosacea the physicians kept on sticking me in the same vein on the right arm. this vein finally formed a large clot, changed color and you could actually see kinking and vascular damage by collapsed areas. This was no biggy though because clots in this part are never a problem or health threat. I had that clot (which was at least two inches long that you could see) for over 2.5 years. No change. I started taking grape seed extract/pycnogenol complex and the clot totally disappeared in less than 6 days. The vessel then regained normal shape and funciton within 3 weeks. When I showed my primary care doctor he could not believe that a clot like that would ever clear -- the current high tech oral anticlotting medications cannot do that. I told him what I did and he was truly a believer after that and started taking it himself. Anecdotal but fascinating.

Dr. Geoffrey Nase
--------------------------------------
Ph.D. Neurovascular Physiologist
Rosacea Research Specialist, IN
http://www.drnase.com
---------------------------------------

Absolutely that is fascinatin.

Just a quick supplement question if you have time Dr Nase; I am currently taking a day;

1 x 10,000mg Milk Thistle
3 x 1000mg flaxseed oil caps
4 x 750mg MSM caps
3 x high dose Glucosamine/Chrondroitin Sulphate caps providing optimum dose 1500mg/1200mg for my dodgy knees :?
1 x prebiotic/probiotic multivit

and just wondered if you would advice stopping taking any of those a week or so before i have laser treatment?

Thanks x

[Ajay]

I take grapeseed oil and ester c at DR Nases rec. dose. I have had a blood disorder and too was stuck in the same vien sooooo mant times, and still go very regulary for blood tests, since taking there suppliments the vien which was getting very tough and lumpy is completly normal, so in my humble opinion something is doing good.

[Ghost]

Dr Nase,

At what daily dosage do you take the grape seed extract?

Thank you.

Ghost

[drnase]

Sally,

You should have no problem taking any of those products. If I may suggest, one of the interesting keys to MSM is it is supposed to help hair and skin. However, it is overrated. The way to analytically evaluate whether it is worth taking is if you see a change in your hair (thicknes, increased growth or faster growth). If you cant see this then it is not positively affecting the skin (much harder to do).

[drnase]

Ghost,

I take a combo tablet (easty to swallow) of 50 mg (95%) grape seed extract plus 50 mg (90%) pycnogenol.

I take two pills twice a day. That is the most common clinical dose.

[nikkitn]

Ghost,

I take a combo tablet (easty to swallow) of 50 mg (95%) grape seed extract plus 50 mg (90%) pycnogenol.

I take two pills twice a day. That is the most common clinical dose.

Dr. Nase,
Can I ask where you get this product?
Thanks,
Nicole

[drnase]

Source Naturals

Thannks Dr Nase.

I am mainly taking the MSN for my hair as i had it cut very short after a hairdressing cock up. It is growing like a weed although my hair tends to grow fast anyhow, not sure whether its just me or the MSN but its grown around 5 inchs in three months.

[G24]

drnase,

Is this supplement of yours perfectly safe in the long run? What is pycnogenol?

Thanks

g24

G24 if you google pycnogenol lots of info on it comes up. try visiting this site for more info;

http://www.pycnogenol.com/

[G24]

Thank you for the link Sally_ann.
Maybe I should try this supplement for my mild Rosacea then :)

G24

I think that would be a very good idea.

[drnase]

For more information see newly added study under "Research and Scientific Study Section"

[G24]

Thank you very much, this just made my da a little bit easier :)
I will order the pycnogenol complex very soon.

Have a nice day,

G24

[adyus]

Hello!!!
Look here:
http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-exec/PNAME/Proanidin_50_Pycnogenol_Proanthodyn_Complex/product_id/6352

URL maybreak,sorry! I think this is what dr.Nase is using. This is the best price I've found.

Best wishes,

Adrian.

[drnase]

Aydus,

That's the one. The price is really incredible when you compare it to all health stores in the "real world" and even most Internet discount warehouses. This one has an excellent reputation and source naturals is a phenomenol brand...... clinically.

[G24]

Thank you Adyous.

G24

[Chris23]

Thanks, adyus and Dr.Nase. I just placed an order, cost me $70 shipping included getting them to Norway, but I'm not complaining. :)

Regards,
Chris

[nikkitn]

Does anyone have any stomach problems after taking the pycnogenol/grapeseed extract? I have IBS and I'm a little worried it could cause some trouble.

Thanks,
Nicole

[snwbdrloco84]

Hi,

Is there any point to take supplements before your rosacea is stabilized or in other words, back to the pre-rosacea state? Basically in my case, I am taking vitamin C(3g), flaxseed oil(1 to 2 tablespoons of Spectrum brand), a multi-vitamin, and zinc gluconate(25mg). Also, I have been using noritate for over two years now and doxycycline and minocycline sporadically. Should I even bother adding the rest of the recommendations on supplements and such listed in Dr. Nase's book like grapeseed extract, alpha lipoic acid, etc.? Currently, I am saving $$ for laser treatments with Dr. Darm. What I am taking now has made my rosacea somewhat better, but I have permanent redness, blotchy skin, micro-vascular matting, enlarged pores, oily skin(my face doesn't look as bad as it sounds), even after undergoing 4 v-beams this past summer and fall of 2004. Anyone know?

Thanks,
Ray

Just wanted to give another website where it is nice and cheap;

http://store.herbalnutricon.com/sn0519.html

there is a choice between Proanidin 50 and Proanidin 100. i honestly can't see what the difference is! I assumed that the Proanidin 100 would have 100mg per tablet but it doesn't look like it. if anyone understands the difference i'd love to know before i place an order.

[adyus]

Hello guys! Glad to be of help.

Chris23, I can't beleive you paid 70 "bucks" for shipping. It costs 80$ to ship in my country, so I'm using local brands.

Sally_ann, the suplement facts for 50mg and 100mg are the same because of the different serving size: 2 tablets of 50 mg and 1 tablet of 100mg. I missed this also, when I first read it.

Call me Adrian :lol: "adyous","aydus"? :PPP Just kidding.

Best wishes,

Adrian.

I thought i lookedat the serving size but obviously not hard enough lol. i blame my flushing tonight for addling my brain, i just can't think straight when my face hurts!

Cheers Adrian

[Chris23]

Hello guys! Glad to be of help.

Chris23, I can't beleive you paid 70 "bucks" for shipping. It costs 80$ to ship in my country, so I'm using local brands..

It was $70 in total, shipping included, so I paid about $30 for shipping.

Regards,
Chris

Did we establish the optimum dose of this supplement to help with rosacea? I have heard anything from 100mg a day upto 600mg a day! Is there a definitive on this does anyone know?

[G24]

I would also like to know. And is there a possibility that this complex can actually help clear mild rosacea? (not just slow the progress)

g24

[Andy]

How does this product compare with another Source Naturals supplement, Skin Eternal (http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1645.html) , which also contains many of the supplements we rosaceans need? I thought I had found the ultimate rosacea-supplement in Skin Eternal, but I guess Proanidin is one step above? Or how about combining the two? And I'm curious about the dose too!

Thanks,
Andy

[nikkitn]

Dr. Nase says he takes 2 tablets of the Source Naturals 2 times a day (for a total of 4 tablets). That's 200mg of grape seed and 200 of pycnogenol.

[yossarian]

So then: anyone care to answer the question surely on the lips of many of us? How does one pronounce "pycnogenol"?

Is it pic-no-gee-nul or pyce-no-gee-nul?

This has bothered me for years.

[Andy]

Here's another good site that seems to have every single Source Naturals supplement available, including Boswellia Extract which I've heard good things about for reducing oil production, at very good prices: www.myvitanet.com

Apparantly its prenounced 'pik-NAH-juh-nol'

[Bihbicat]

Dr Nase, do you or anyone else know if this combo supplement under discussion is safe to take if you already have liver damage? I take various vitamins and minerals currently, but as I don't know much about this one (and there doesn't seem to be an equivelant product here in Aust) I'm just wanting to check it out re: safety for the liver before buying.

Cheers, B

:arrow:

[Bihbicat]

Thanks Marc. Well, time to cough up for yet another addition to the handful of hippy pills I take each day!

[Bihbicat]

Okay, here's another question: I just realised that I'm already taking 1000mg daily of Grape Seed in an antioxident forumla. Will it really be of extra benefit to take pycnogenol in addition or am I more or less covered already with just the Grape Seed?

[drnase]

Bihi,

Yes, the grape seed extract and pycnogenol are liver cleansers/detoxifiers, and protectants. When the liver metabolizes food or drugs, free radicals damage some of the cells -- grape seed and pycnogenol can be stored in the cells and protect the mitochondria and thereofore save the cells.

It also helps the liver deal with bad stuff that it filters. Not as great as milk thistle, but still very good.

I think you are covered for two life times with 1000 mgs of grape seed. You are what you eat, so be careful if you see yourself changing into your supplement. :shock:

You are what you eat, so be careful if you see yourself changing into your supplement. :shock:

That made me chuckle :D

[Bihbicat]

I know, I nearly died when I looked and saw it had 1000mg! It's a hard-core fomula this one.

[ken972]

Ive read Dr. Nase's book but still confused on this topic. Just confused on what to take and how much of it. Would be alot easier if there was an all in one rosacea vitamin to take..lol. Any advice on which ones to start out on? I just take a multi vitamin at the moment. I suppose the Proanidin 50 Pycnogenol/Proanthodyn Complexone or the Skin Eternal would be a good start? Ken

[ken]

The Source Naturals brand does sound good but I have always thought that a capsule was always the better choice in regards to absorbtion, so I am a little leary of ever taking any tablets. Someone once told me that in sewer treatment plants they find hundreds of popular multi vitamins that pass right through un digested.

Ken, i always try to buy capsules as well as i heard that they are more readily absorbed and usually have less additives to bulk them out.

[Andy]

What about taking both Source Naturals Eternal Skin and Proanidin? Is that a good combo or would it be too much of anything? They both seem to cover a great deal of the supplements we need.

[drnase]

You are right in regards to many tablets being less bioavailable and less digestable. This is all about the fillers.

The Source Natruals has done extensive studies on absorption and bioabilability and it is nearly 100% in 20 minutes. You can measure it in saliva in 30 minutes which means it has made its way around the block. I always go for capsules unless scientific studies have been done on tablets or it is a pharmaceutical name like Source Naturals.

Excellent question.

[ken972]

What about taking both Source Naturals Eternal Skin and Proanidin? Is that a good combo or would it be too much of anything? They both seem to cover a great deal of the supplements we need.



The million dollar question! Im real curious myself. Id rather take combination supplements over individual ones. Im curious about the flakseed oil as well. Ken

[grooney]

Does anyone know if these supplements can be taken while pregnant or nursing?

[diger_diga]

sorry for my late reply
first of all thank you very much DR NASE
Just a question

I take 300mg of pure proanthocyanidins... (4x75mg a day)
is that good or too much?
i dont take pycogenol..
thanks for any input...

[FUredness]

Is this stuff really worth $40 a month? That seems a little excessive for something that will only halt the progression of the disease. Thoughts?

[IowaDavid]

Check out NOW Foods...a decent product with a relatively low price. Wish they were cheaper, tho. :wink:

[drnase]

sorry for my late reply
first of all thank you very much DR NASE
Just a question

I take 300mg of pure proanthocyanidins... (4x75mg a day)
is that good or too much?
i dont take pycogenol..
thanks for any input...


High Diga,

Thats a great dose for most. Looks like you found the purity 00 should be 95% for grape seed extract or skin and 85% to 90% for pycnogenol.

You should be able to take 150 mgs twice a day because of the long half life....... unless it makes you flush at all.

[drnase]

Is this stuff really worth $40 a month? That seems a little excessive for something that will only halt the progression of the disease. Thoughts?


Abolutely, I dislike that these supplements are soooo expensive. But you can get the NOW brand that David recommends or do price hunting and save 50% to 60% online. Why does rosacea have to be such an expensive disorder?

[FUredness]

Dr. Nase, this may be a stupid question, but what do you think about this new super antioxidant GliSODin? Is this one of those to good to be true over-hyped things or could it actually help? How would you compare it to the Pycnogenol/Grapeseed combo? Thanks so much.

[FUredness]

Anyone?????

[fanta]

Its not antibiotics, accutane or lasers - as long as you get sufficiently vitamin C things cant go completely wrong for you.

[drnase]

Dr. Nase, this may be a stupid question, but what do you think about this new super antioxidant GliSODin? Is this one of those to good to be true over-hyped things or could it actually help? How would you compare it to the Pycnogenol/Grapeseed combo? Thanks so much.


Fu,

Totally awesome question. I am writing an indepth article on this. Based on my Microvascular Physiology Expertise, I can say without a doubt that superoxide dismutase in each cell of our blood vessels is probably the most imporant protective enzyme against rosacea blood vessel changes and hypersensitivity. I can almost bet that a study would find abnormal levels of superoxide dismutase in rosacea sufferers or abnormal activity. There are three forms of SOD -- two inside the cell and one right outside the cell that are heavy defense mechanisms.


Love GliSODin, primarily because it is one of the first to actually pass through the gut and not be 100% deactivated. It boosts SOD in blood and levels in blood vessel walls as shown in clinical studies.

An interesting side not. In genetic studies of transgenic mice, if they genetically manipulate SOD enzymes to double their concentration, you cannot damage their blood vessels in any way, no matter how hard you try. Great studies that are very cogent to this subject.

I mentioned this back in my book and still believe it -- rosacea is a disorder that involves flushing and the inability for facial blood vessels to protect themselves with SOD and/or an impaired ability of rosacea blood vessels to repair themselves.

I recommend pharmaceutical grade, clinically proven SOD supplements higher than any other single nutraceutical I have ever recommended or is currently on the shelves. Once again expensive, but this is our blessing, horrbile disorder that puts holes in your pockets.

One very important warning. I would never buy an SOD supplement that does not have good clinical studies using assays to measure their true biological effect in humans. As a statement of fact, 95% of these very expensive SOD supplements are 100% worthless. You must have verifcation of your specific brand in human studies, otherwise you are throwing your money away.

Thanks again for that great question and insight.

Best Regard.

Truly an excellent question that is germane to every single rosacea sufferer.

[FUredness]

Fanta, your post doesnt make any sense. :shock:

[Karla]

Dr. Nase,

Is there a brand of SOD that you recommend?

(Hopefully it's just lying there on top of a stack of papers by the computer and you don't have to waste any time searching ;-)

Thanks!!!

Karla

[drnase]

Dr. Nase,

Is there a brand of SOD that you recommend?

(Hopefully it's just lying there on top of a stack of papers by the computer and you don't have to waste any time searching ;-)

Thanks!!!

Karla


Alright wisegirl..... For right now GliSODin. Let me look into the other two products. Next time it will be at the bottom of the pile. :D

[FUredness]

Hey, The PL Thomas website has done human studies on the affect of GliSODin on human skin and sun exposure. They had very good results. They list on their website that you can get it from NOW foods, so it sounds to me like that is a good place to get it.

[Andy]

So what's the deal here Dr. Nase, are you adding this stuff to your official supplements for rosacea list?

Thanks

[mikey]

Yes Dr Nase would you consider this to be better than pycnogenol, therefore we use glisodin instead? Or should we still take pycnogenol aswell?

[francois]

I just wonder if grape seed extract have same effects when it is taken as a tablet and when taken untablet ( when you but it in a box and eat by spoon)

If same how many table spoons of grape seed extract and flax seed oil should be consumed a day? And if anyone consumes it this way , do you mix it with something?

Thanks

[francois]

I really dont understand why grape sed extract has to be consumed as tablets. I found a 200g box of GSE costs 10$. it looks like grape seeds blendered and can be taken like flax seed oil, 1 table spoon per day etc...

[Andy]

Love GliSODin, primarily because it is one of the first to actually pass through the gut and not be 100% deactivated. It boosts SOD in blood and levels in blood vessel walls as shown in clinical studies.

One very important warning. I would never buy an SOD supplement that does not have good clinical studies using assays to measure their true biological effect in humans. As a statement of fact, 95% of these very expensive SOD supplements are 100% worthless. You must have verifcation of your specific brand in human studies, otherwise you are throwing your money away.


I'm about to stock up on supplements again soon, and would like some tips on which Glisodin brand and dosage to choose. I know you're a fan of Source Naturals products Dr. Nase, and I saw that they do have Glisodin in 250 mg tabs (http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1821.html). Is one tab a day enough?

Thanks

[G24]

@andmag79

I just ordered Sourcenaturals Glisodin.. Hope it works :)

[Andy]

@andmag79

I just ordered Sourcenaturals Glisodin.. Hope it works :)

Good to hear! :) I think I'll go for this brand as well. Keep us posted!

[mikey]

So how is everyone finding the GliSODin? Any good news?

[timmay28]

So how is everyone finding the GliSODin? Any good news?

Couldn't be better. I've posted about this earlier and don't think I'll say anything other than it's had a very positive effect... I don't want to come across as "rubbing it in".

[drnase]

So how is everyone finding the GliSODin? Any good news?

Couldn't be better. I've posted about this earlier and don't think I'll say anything other than it's had a very positive effect... I don't want to come across as "rubbing it in".


Great timmay. Lots of positive reports being sent to me. This one is a keeper. I have added it to my list. By all accounts, I should not have one free radical in my body :D

[mikey]

Thats great to hear! I just ordered myself some and cant wait to use it.

Does it help with persistant redness by any chance?

I ask because over the past 3 or 4 weeks it has been really hot in Australia and my face has become constantly red all of a sudden in the bad areas, whereas any redness would usually dissipate over 1 or 2 days. Im hoping this is just due to the increase in air temp, rather than a progression in my rosacea, and im hoping GliSODin will help in bringing it back to normal...

Thanks,
Mike

[nikkitn]

So are you all taking the GliSODin AND the pycno/gse tablets? There are so many supplements out there I can't keep them straight and which ones should and shouldn't be mixed... Right now I'm just taking the pycno/gse tabs.

[timmay28]

Does it help with persistant redness by any chance?

It's helped with everything. Redness, acne, dermatitis, heat induced bumps, dryness to some extent, even the rash on my chest that was progressively getting worse is now pretty much gone. I haven't used cortizone in a very long time.

I don't know about its' effectiveness in the sun other than what the studies say since I haven't taken it during summer months.

Anyway, give it a good month or two trial before reaching a verdict... my face was a mess for the first couple weeks on it and didn't really start to improve until weeks 5-6.

I take leucoselect gse with it and that's it. I used to take gse alone and it helped just a tad with bumps. Not sure if it's still worth taking but I don't wanna rock the boat at this point.

[nikkitn]

Hmm... I think I will purchase this. Did you buy the Source Naturals? Also, how much do you take per day? Thanks.

[Andy]

Hmm... I think I will purchase this. Did you buy the Source Naturals? Also, how much do you take per day? Thanks.

I believe Dr. Nase mentioned 500 IU's/day is the clinical dose, which is 2 Source Naturals GliSODin tabs/day. I take one morning and night.

[Miki]

what about rutin? never heard anyone really talk about on the forums but i read a few articles about how its good for blood vessels. i take ester-c , rutin, and citrus bioflvanoids on a daily basis. i figure its still quite effective without putting a major hole in my wallet. grape seed is still somewhat reasonably priced but pycnogenol is just way to much for me to afford, and as stated previously it's not even really worth it considering it only prevents and doesent cure.

[Bradley]

what about rutin? take ester-c , rutin, and citrus bioflvanoids on a daily basis.

Miki, the term bioflavonoid is an umbrella term that covers several known and unknown ingredients including hesperin, hesperidin, eriodictyol, quercetin, quercetin and rutin. The ideal approach is to take the full spectrum of bioflavonoids to stabilise the blood vessels as each ingredients performs in a slightly different way to the other. However not only can this be expensive but it's also difficult to achieve via supplementation.

The best approach is to try and eat as many fruit, vegetables, nuts/seeds as possible per day and supplement this diet with Grape Seed extract, Pine Bark extract, Ester-C/Vitamin C and Superoxide Dismutase.

[Miki]

what about rutin? take ester-c , rutin, and citrus bioflvanoids on a daily basis.

Miki, the term bioflavonoid is an umbrella term that covers several known and unknown ingredients including hesperin, hesperidin, eriodictyol, quercetin, quercetin and rutin. The ideal approach is to take the full spectrum of bioflavonoids to stabilise the blood vessels as each ingredients performs in a slightly different way to the other. However not only can this be expensive but it's also difficult to achieve via supplementation.

The best approach is to try and eat as many fruit, vegetables, nuts/seeds as possible per day and supplement this diet with Grape Seed extract, Pine Bark extract, Ester-C/Vitamin C and Superoxide Dismutase.


ya im gonna buy all those supplements and go broke, what are you kidding me.

[fut]

I've decided to stop Ester C to start SOD. so it will be GSE and SOD for me. I eat enough fruit and stuff enough for Vitamin C =)

[Bradley]

ya im gonna buy all those supplements and go broke, what are you kidding me.

Lol, you think 4 supplements is a lot? Don't get me started on the other supplements that would also be beneficial!

In fact, 4 supplements ain't too bad for someone suffering from a skin disorder. You should see what acne sufferers take to try and heal their skin; on average, the diet conscious ones, take in excess of 10 supplements a day.

Anyway you only go broke if you become over-simplistic in sourcing your products. Instead of buying patented Pycnogenol, you can by 'generic' Pine Bark Extract which is identical to Pycnogenol and standardised to the exact same degree for a fraction of the cost.

[fut]

realistically, this list would be better:

1) GSE
2) SOD
3) Omega 3 Supplement including fish oil, borage oil and flax oil

Just make sure you get enough fruit and veggies throughout the day and Ester C can be spared.

[IowaDavid]

I'd also add GLA/EPO supplementation to that. But that's more for ocular rosacea. It might be more beneficial than Omega-3 supplementation for rosacea.

[drnase]

realistically, this list would be better:

1) GSE
2) SOD
3) Omega 3 Supplement including fish oil, borage oil and flax oil

Just make sure you get enough fruit and veggies throughout the day and Ester C can be spared.



Fut,

That is a very wise list. It covers several major areas.

[nikkitn]

I've looked in to purchasing some Omega 3 supplements - there are so many on the market? Which have you all found to be the best? Is the Source Naturals Glisodin supposed to be good?

[redzone]

I was in the health store the other day checking prices on some of the afforementioned supplements and the guy working there showed me this product:

http://www.livingnutritionals.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_25&products_id=70

seems to have pine bark extract and SOD. It was only $30... any thoughts on this one?

[WrinkledClue]

Here's a site I found. Does anyone know if their product quality is good?

http://store.herbalnutricon.com/sn0519.html

[nutrovitasub]

Proanidin is a potent combination of two powerful bioflavonoids, Pycnogenol, extracted from Atlantic pine bark, and Proanthodyn, extracted from grape seeds. Both compounds are rich in proanthocyanidins, a special class of antioxidants that have been proven in in vitro studies to effectively scavenge both water- and lipid-soluble free radicals. In vitro studies have also demonstrated proanthocyanidins' ability to support the integrity of elastin and collagen, important constituents of connective tissue.
Pycnogenol® and Grape Seed Extract is a potent combination of two powerful bioflavonoids, Pycnogenol®, extracted from French maritime pine bark (Pinus maritimus), and Proanthodyn™, extracted from grape seeds (Vitis vinifera). Both compounds are rich in proanthocyanidins, a special class of water-soluble bioflavonoids which are excellent free-radical scavengers. Proanthocyanidins are believed to play a role in maintaining good health.

For Proanidin 100 Products :
Proanidin (http://www.nutrovita.com/search.asp?keyword=Proanidin)

For More Information Nutrovita (http://www.nutrovita.com)