Rosacea Diet

[hozer2k]

I was diagnosed with hypoglycemia a few years back, and since then pretty much cut all obvious sources of sugar from my diet (soda, candy, etc.). However, I have kept the carbs from bread, pasta, etc. for the most part.

In the last month or so I have dramatically changed my diet as I have been lifting weights again. I have stayed away from fast food completely. I have significantly increased my protein intake as well. For a week, I had no P&P and reduced redness by about 30%...I was excited. Not to mention, my skin was less oily.

However, a few things happened. A girl I was dating mentioned I started to get bad breath and she thought it was ketosis (due to low carb intake). So I started upping my carb intake in the form of whole grain chips, rice, etc. Besides I need the carbs for bodybuilding. Still...no problems, still clear.

Yesterday though, I went to subway and got a foot long sub on white bread. Although I did not have a flush, I got about 3 P&P a few hours later. Is that bread particularly bad for you and perhaps what caused this?

I have had Brady's book for sometime, but have been reading it today. My main problem is that how can you lift weights and gain muscle mass on such a low carb diet? I am thinking I will have to balance things out, but will just have to watch out for bad items.

[Melissa W]

Hozer,
First off it is very important to have a well balanced diet meaning that you should not cut out any food group and that includes complex carbs and healthy fats. Also, a high protein intake is actually unhealthy (regardless of what certain so called "experts" have to say regarding this issue) as it causes your kidneys to work too hard and can cause the body to go into ketosis which means it burns its own body organs (gross) for fuel.

Here is a link explaining what happens and the dangers of a high protein diet.

http://women.webmd.com/guide/high-protein-low-carbohydrate-diets

Of course you will find much info contradicting this from quackery websites.

I personally believe moderation is key and follow a mediterranean way of eating with modifications due to personal preferences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_diet

Melissa

[badeliots]

Hozer,
First off it is very important to have a well balanced diet meaning that you should not cut out any food group and that includes complex carbs and healthy fats. Also, a high protein intake is actually unhealthy (regardless of what certain so called "experts" have to say regarding this issue) as it causes your kidneys to work too hard and can cause the body to go into ketosis which means it burns its own body organs (gross) for fuel.

Here is a link explaining what happens and the dangers of a high protein diet.

http://women.webmd.com/guide/high-protein-low-carbohydrate-diets

Of course you will find much info contradicting this from quackery websites.

I personally believe moderation is key and follow a mediterranean way of eating with modifications due to personal preferences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_diet

Melissa

I am surprised that you call it quackery. There is a lot of research now showing that our current, so called healthy diet, with all food groups included, is the main reason our obesity rates and health problems are at an all time high. gary taubes has a great book about this, good calories bad calories, and so does Barry Groves (trick and treat). I am always astounded that people are quick to judge a low carb diet as bad when it is made up of protein, fats, vegetables, and fruits in the later stages. How is that unhealthy? The grains in most people diets can be linked to autoimmune diseases and other problems since most people are not able to digest them properly. In ketosis, your body burns fat not your organs and there is no danger linked with a high protein diet unless you already have kidney problems. I realize this goes against most mainstream dietary advice but maybe that is the problem> If the food pyramid is the correct way of eating why are we getting fatter and sicker every year in the US?

[Melissa W]

I think you misunderstood my post. I am speaking specifically of high protein diets. That is not a healthy way to eat. It is OK if you disagree with me but that is my belief on this topic. The website I linked you to in my post may offer more info for you.

Best wishes,
Melissa

[hozer2k]

Well this seems to be a touchy subject.

But certainly there are obvious things to stay away from such as soda, candy, etc. And there is another category such as refined breads and that kind of things. I am not suggesting anything in excess, nor elimination of any food group.

Rather, I am wishing to discuss certain foods that may significantly affect rosacea. I have found that changing my diet for other purposes has had a beneficial affect on my rosacea, my body and mind.

[Melissa W]

From the webMD link


What Are the Health Risks Associated With High Protein, Low Carb Diets?

High protein diets can cause a number of health problems, including:

Kidney failure. Consuming too much protein puts a strain on the kidneys, which can make a person susceptible to kidney disease.
High cholesterol (http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/default.htm). It is well known that high protein diets (consisting of red meat, whole dairy products, and other high fat foods) are linked to high cholesterol. Studies have linked high cholesterol levels to an increased risk of developing heart disease (http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/default.htm), stroke and cancer.
Osteoporosis and kidney stones (http://www.webmd.com/kidney-stones/default.htm). High protein diets have also been shown to cause people to excrete more calcium than normal through their urine. Over a prolonged period of time, this can increase a person's risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones.
Cancer. One of the reasons high protein diets increase the risks of certain health problems is because of the avoidance of carbohydrate-containing foods and the vitamins, minerals, fiber and anti-oxidants they contain. It is therefore important to obtain your protein from a diet rich in whole grains, fruits and vegetables (http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/fruits-veggies-more-matters). Not only are your needs for protein being met, but you are also helping to reduce your risk of developing cancer.
Unhealthy metabolic state (ketosis). Low carb diets can cause your body to go into a dangerous metabolic state called ketosis since your body burns fat instead of glucose for energy. During ketosis, the body forms substances known as ketones, which can cause organs to fail and result in gout, kidney stones, or kidney failure. Ketones can also dull a person's appetite, cause nausea and bad breath (http://www.webmd.com/oral-health/guide/bad-breath). Ketosis can be prevented by eating at least 100 grams of carbohydrates a day.

[Melissa W]

Well this seems to be a touchy subject.

But certainly there are obvious things to stay away from such as soda, candy, etc. And there is another category such as refined breads and that kind of things. I am not suggesting anything in excess, nor elimination of any food group.

Rather, I am wishing to discuss certain foods that may significantly affect rosacea. I have found that changing my diet for other purposes has had a beneficial affect on my rosacea, my body and mind.

I don't think anyone here is recommending soda or candy, (though I do miss these laugh:) or refined breads etc And I agree with you that any food in excess is bad IMO and there (in general) is no need to eliminate any one food group from your diet and in fact may be unhealthy to do so.yes:

For what foods may or may not affect rosacea you should also check out the thread where I outlined what I read from the book The Clear Skin Diet
Though it is not specific for rosacea I do think that it is helpful for skin conditions in general.
http://www.rosaceagroup.org/The_Rosacea_Forum/showthread.php?t=15729&highlight=clear+skin+diet


Best wishes,
Melissa

[Melissa W]

Rather, I am wishing to discuss certain foods that may significantly affect rosacea. I have found that changing my diet for other purposes has had a beneficial affect on my rosacea, my body and mind.

One more point I would like to add is that while I can understand the desire to find what foods are good and not good for rosacea it is important to realize that any type of fad "diet" like a high protein diet is detrimental to overall general health. So, while in the short run some of these diets may be helpful to your symptoms in the long run I believe they can cause more harm than good. Again, there is much debate over these issues and I was just offering my opinion and I do have a very strong science background so it is not an uneducated opinion. We are all allowed to have our opinions right and share them as we see fit. That is what we are here for. I did not mean to offfend anyone smile:

[J-Mill]

I'm not sure Barry Groves is the guy you want to rest your arguments on. Taubes' theory is primarily agreed to by all which is that refined carbs are bad for you.

Meat centric diets high in saturated fats...well my opinion is this is going to kill you just as fast as craming refined carbs. The reason you lose weight is because of ketosis, which requires that you eat unhealthy levels of saturated fats. The excess saturated fats + the effects of the ketosis are a one way ticket to the grave. If you don't eat enough to reach ketosis, studies show you actually gain more weight than if you were eating a diet balanced with carbs.

I won't say anything more other than those interested can check out: http://www.diseaseproof.com/

[boyandhisdog]

To veer semi-off topic for a second, as a thin fit American (which admittedly is becoming a rarity), I take question the implication that we are all fat due to the food pyramid. I don't buy that.

I personally feel it has a lot more to do with the huge quantities of fast food eaten here in the states, the fact that kids today don't go outside and play but instead park there young but fat asses in front of the TV, and that the vast majority of American's do not excercise nearly enough yet they eat far more than you are designed to. Seriously, my neighbors kids are two fat little turds and they "play" tennis on a Wii but I swear, they have never actually touched a racquet and would probably be winded by opening the can of balls.

Restaurants put HUGE qauntities of cheap food on a platter to give the perception of value- and we stuff it down. Almost any diet, regardless of content, in moderation, will not lead to obesity. If you ate nothing but Circus Peanuts for a monthshock:- in moderation- you may have problems, but obesity wouldn't necessarily be one of them.

Just my opinion of course, but I think that America has a perception problem. We think our mouth and our assh--e are the same size. But, in reality, you can't possibly crap out as much as most people shove in- regardless of what food group it is from.laugh:

Yours,
Rob

PS- Melissa is well known for stirring up trouble with her profanity laced outbursts and polarizing posts!laugh:

[phlika29]

Hozer

I am not sure you have seen this link about diet:

http://rosacea-research.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dietary_Influence

I think it is a good starting point when it comes to looking at diet. I find that by cutting out foods that trigger a histamine response most useful.

Now if I could veer this thread even more off course for a couple of minutes I find this whole discussion very interesting. Like most things there are complex explanations as to why people (we shall call them americans) are getting fatter. Most people don't realize that consuming a relatively small amount of excess calories each day will over time lead to obesity. Nor do people realize exactly what is hidden in their food. But there are other underlying and hidden barriers to good diet and health, not least poverty and all the associated problems of lack of transport, access to healthy food, etc. With regards to exercise parents are too afraid nowadays to let their children play outside and if america is anything like the UK many of the playing fields and play parks were sold off for redevelopment. Anyway, Hozer I hope you don't mind the slightly off topic chat.

[Driven]

I have had Brady's book for sometime, but have been reading it today. My main problem is that how can you lift weights and gain muscle mass on such a low carb diet? I am thinking I will have to balance things out, but will just have to watch out for bad items.

I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding in this thread. High protein low carb diets can be unhealthy. However, a more normal ratio (say 40/40/20 p/c/f) with high protein and carbs should be fine. I lift and eat anywhere between 3000 and 3700 calories/day when bulking. I don't eat low carb (I don't gain as well), and take in around 270mg of protein/day (mostly dairy, eggs, chicken, and whey). I do a little cardio to keep my heart healthy, and consistently check out fine at the doctor, with very low cholesterol and normal blood pressure.

If you're concerned about gaining fat when bulking, try cycling calories. I use a VERY low volume approach that works well for me:

Day
1 3600cal/bench press/barbell row
2 3600cal/rest
3 3600cal/rest
4 2800cal/30m cardio
5 2800cal/30m cardio
6 3600cal/squat
7 3600cal/rest
8 3600cal/rest
9 2800cal/30m cardio
10 2800cal/30m cardio
...repeat. Your calories will vary.

All that said, lower calorie diets have been proven to extend life. I'm sacrificing a few years at the end to be big now :)

[hozer2k]

OK, so while it is interesting to talk about different diets, everyone has their own unique opinion about this. I am not doing anything extreme nor advocating this. For the most part I have noticed a good response with a high protein (lean meats, fish, nuts, etc). diet that is still balanced with good carbs and fats.

What I AM trying to figure out is why after eating a foot long sub at subway I got 4 P&P a few hours later. For about a week prior and since, I have not eaten any fast food and have zero P&P. And yes I get carbs and not afraid of them.

Normally my carbs come from pasta, vegetables, grains, nuts, etc. But not from bread. Here is where I need help. I do not know much about carbs and different types. I am guessing that white bread at subway is close to a refined sugar and triggers and insulin response? What I am trying to understand is if complex carbs would be better and what are those? Could it be other things like preservatives that they use? I don't really know, but it sure is an odd coincidence. The day after eating the sub, I went back to my normal diet that does not consist of any fast food and my P&P cleared up about twice as fast as normal.

Anyway, if I could get some further education about different carbs and how they affect your insulin levels or something like that, it would be great. I am not too interested in debating different diet approaches.

[Melissa W]

Hozer

I am not sure you have seen this link about diet:

http://rosacea-research.org/wiki/index.php?title=Dietary_Influence

I think it is a good starting point when it comes to looking at diet. I find that by cutting out foods that trigger a histamine response most useful.

Now if I could veer this thread even more off course for a couple of minutes I find this whole discussion very interesting. Like most things there are complex explanations as to why people (we shall call them americans) are getting fatter. Most people don't realize that consuming a relatively small amount of excess calories each day will over time lead to obesity. Nor do people realize exactly what is hidden in their food. But there are other underlying and hidden barriers to good diet and health, not least poverty and all the associated problems of lack of transport, access to healthy food, etc. With regards to exercise parents are too afraid nowadays to let their children play outside and if america is anything like the UK many of the playing fields and play parks were sold off for redevelopment. Anyway, Hozer I hope you don't mind the slightly off topic chat.

LOL I do believe obesity is on the rise everywhere Sarah yes: I saw the stats and Europe has its fair share for sure laugh: Though it is not a laughing matter Cry:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1129964/Britain-sickest-country-Europe-worst-rates-obesity-teenage-pregnancy.html

http://consumerist.com/tag/obesity/?i=5017949&t=you-thought-the-us-was-the-most-obese-country-think-again

Posted by Driven
All that said, lower calorie diets have been proven to extend life. I'm sacrificing a few years at the end to be big now

Driven, I agree with you. I would rather enjoy my food than restrict calories in return for a few extra years. If you are hungry what the heck good are those few extra years!


Best wishes,
Melissa

[Melissa W]

OK, so while it is interesting to talk about different diets, everyone has their own unique opinion about this. I am not doing anything extreme nor advocating this. For the most part I have noticed a good response with a high protein (lean meats, fish, nuts, etc). diet that is still balanced with good carbs and fats.

What I AM trying to figure out is why after eating a foot long sub at subway I got 4 P&P a few hours later. For about a week prior and since, I have not eaten any fast food and have zero P&P. And yes I get carbs and not afraid of them.

Normally my carbs come from pasta, vegetables, grains, nuts, etc. But not from bread. Here is where I need help. I do not know much about carbs and different types. I am guessing that white bread at subway is close to a refined sugar and triggers and insulin response? What I am trying to understand is if complex carbs would be better and what are those? Could it be other things like preservatives that they use? I don't really know, but it sure is an odd coincidence. The day after eating the sub, I went back to my normal diet that does not consist of any fast food and my P&P cleared up about twice as fast as normal.

Anyway, if I could get some further education about different carbs and how they affect your insulin levels or something like that, it would be great. I am not too interested in debating different diet approaches.

Yes complex carbs are better for you and white bread will spike your insulin levels. Of course what triggers one might not trigger another as it all comes down to individual responses. In general any food with a high glycemic index might be something to limit in your diet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycemic

I think you have answered your own question. You now know that when you eat white bread you break out in papules/pustules so now you can try whole wheat bread and see if there is any difference and if so voila. You can still enjoy bread. It all comes down to individual reactions and all we can post here is generalities really.

[Melissa W]

http://diabetes.about.com/od/carbohydratefaq/f/typesofcarbs.html

http://www.weightlossforall.com/complex-carbs.htm

http://www.healthcastle.com/whole-grains.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_bread


White bread is also criticized for being too easily digested, resulting in more drastic rising and falling of blood sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_sugar) and insulin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin) levels than results from eating slower digesting whole grain breads.

[phlika29]

Missy-oh yes we are guilty as chargedlaugh:.

Hozer-that link I gave explains why some foods cause problems for rosacea. Refined carbs can make me flush sometimes.

[Brady Barrows]

My Rosacea Diet has always been a hot topic of controversy, as I say in my book, right up there with religion and politics. As soon as someone says, 'this is what you should eat or drink,' then watch out, cause the controversy begins.

Just think about it; what we choose to eat and drink is a universal right not written in any bill of rights or universal declaration of human rights. We know, deep down inside us, that we can choose to eat whatever we want.

That leads to who is an authority on diet? There are, of course, nutritionists, who spend a great deal of time becoming diet authorities. Obviously if one spends a great deal of time on this subject, one develops an opinion on which food group one needs.

The facts are that without protein and fat you would die. Carbohydrate is simply the wonderful world of different types of sugar which makes life enjoyable. However, one can live without carbohydrate. Carbohydrate is not a requirement for life. What one needs for life is glucose which is the energy used by the body cells. Glucose can be made from all three food groups. But if one was on the moon and had plenty of table sugar and water, eventually one would die because you can't make protein and fat from sugar. But you can make glucose from either protein or fat.

The current approach being taken is that a high protein diet is healthy. There is plenty of research on this subject showing the benefits of a high protein diet. The Eskimo and the Aborigine have been eating a high protein, high fat diet for a long time, not to mention the North American Indians who followed the buffalo.

However, I agree that balance is the key to controlling rosacea in the long run. My Rosacea Diet is 30 days. After the thirty days, one must find the balance of the three food groups to control rosacea. But if one changes over from a high carbohydrate diet which is what most Americans are eating, one's metabolism will change which causes some side effects that many are not able to cope with. The point is to show that a high protein diet does indeed control rosacea for many rosaceans and the numbers of supporters of this regimen is growing. Not everyone can control rosacea with a high protein diet, just as not everyone can control rosacea with antibiotics and metrogel.

No doubt there will continue to be those who claim that eating high protein is dangerous but it simply isn't true. It may be unpleasant to change over to a high protein diet, but it is not dangerous. The Rosacea Diet is 30 days. There is absolutely no danger in eating high protein for the thirty days. Just side effects which many are not willing to accept. But there are side effects with taking antibiotics. Everyone simply chooses what one accepts as the treatment of choice when controlling rosacea, including the side effects and risks.

The Diet Controversy will no doubt continue as long as anyone has an opinion on what one should eat and drink. And if one becomes an authority then watch out, cause the controversy will escalate.

[J-Mill]

To veer semi-off topic for a second, as a thin fit American (which admittedly is becoming a rarity), I take question the implication that we are all fat due to the food pyramid. I don't buy that.

I personally feel it has a lot more to do with the huge quantities of fast food eaten

Restaurants put HUGE qauntities of cheap food on a platter to give the perception of value- and we stuff it down.


It's true, the portions in the states are obnoxious..they say that food is reflective of culture...hmmmmmmmgrin:

[GJ]

I guess a chief problem with cereal based carbs is that they provide energy and not much more. The refined varities in particular are nutritionally jejune to say the least. Fruit and veg provide so much more.

To avoid a catastophic spike in glucose levels adding fat (or fibre) to your carbs helps upto a point. Pasta with virgin olive oil atop is a better option than simply pasta for instance. This is the rationale for that happy mixture of jam + scone + clotted cream much eaten hereabouts.

[Melissa W]

Posted by Brady
However, one can live without carbohydrate. Carbohydrate is not a requirement for life.

Brady I respectfully disagree with you.

Carbohydrates and proteins are both vital for good health. Each of these nutrients plays a unique role in building and maintaining a healthy body, so any diet that deprives you of one or the other over an extended period of time can put your health at risk.

Your brain, heart and kidneys depend on carbohydrates for energy to function properly. If your diet does not include enough carbohydrates your body will take extreme measures to get the energy it needs; it will feed on carbohydrates stored in muscles and attempt to chemically break down the proteins you eat until those proteins look and act like carbohydrates. Such reactions can produce muscle loss and put extra strain on the kidneys as the body works to dispose of unused protein by-products.

As a general guideline, adults should get about 40 percent to 60 percent of their daily calories from carbohydrates. Good choices include minimally processed products such as oatmeal, brown rice and whole-grain bread.


Carbohydrates are the body’s main source of fuel.
Carbohydrates are easily used by the body for energy.
All of the tissues and cells in our body can use glucose for energy.
Carbohydrates are needed for the central nervous system, the kidneys, the brain, the muscles (including the heart) to function properly.
Carbohydrates can be stored in the muscles and liver and later used for energy.
Carbohydrates are important in intestinal health and waste elimination


Fiber refers to certain types of carbohydrates that our body cannot digest. These carbohydrates pass through the intestinal tract intact and help to move waste out of the body. Diets that are low in fiber have been shown to cause problems such as constipation and hemorrhoids and to increase the risk for certain types of cancers such as colon cancer. Diets high in fiber; however, have been shown to decrease risks for heart disease, obesity, and they help lower cholesterol. Foods high in fiber include fruits, vegetables, and whole grain products




http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/macronutrients.htm


Carbohydrates are also the only form of energy used by the brain.

Without adequate carboydrates
muscle tissue breakdown will occur,
fatigue will set in,
and brain power will diminish.
The body will go into ketosis and if weight loss does occur, it will come from primarily water and lean tissue.
The real danger in ketosis is that ketones are acidic, and high levels of ketones make the blood abnormally acid.

In addition to the medical consequences, there are some practical ones as well
nausea,
mood swings,
weakness,
dizziness,
bad breath,
and depression may also set in as a result of carbohydrate restriction.

http://www.afic.org/Carbohydrates%20and%20Nutrition.htm

There are many health benefits of dietary carbohydrates. Carbohydrates provide more than energy alone.

Best wishes,
Melissa

[man_from_mars]

Well as far as carbs that are needed, I think it depends on how active one is

A typical couch potato with a spare tire around the waist
would probably benefit more from a low carb diet for a few months
burning off the fat reserves for energy
and once they reach their goal weight
slowly start introducing the complex carbs
while also getting off the couch to do some exercising occasionally.

I lost 35 pounds myself about ten years ago doing this
and have maintained since grin:

[Mistica]

I realise this thread has gone off track and now I am about to add to it.

The connection between high protein diets and bone loss.

http://www.westonaprice.org/mythstruths/mtbones.html

It isn't clear cut though, as can be seen with this article.

At the end of the day, no matter what diet we choose to follow, I am pretty sure it has been established by the medical community that excess refined carbohydrates are detrimental to the body.

We frequently hear about the increasing amount of people being diagnosed with type 2 diabetes here in Australia. During the last few days, it has been talked about on the radio every couple of hours. The cause is attributed to the western diet of excessive carbohydrates and junk food.

Brady's diet is restrictive, but from my understanding the purpose is to show the difference in health (and rosacea symptoms) when changing the balance for 30 days and thereafter modifying to personal requirements.

Personally, I couldn't live without significant amounts of vegetables and fruit as they provide health benefits, such as the phytonutrients linked to the prevention of cancer, heart disease and other disorders.

[Melissa W]

that excess refined carbohydrates are detrimental to the body.


Exactly. That is very true.

However, it is important to realize that complex carbs are vital for good health despite Brady's statement that "one can live without carbohydrates"
Absolutely untrue.

see post above for details

[man_from_mars]

The number one health issue affecting American kids today is the French Friesno:

YouTube - How Nasty Are McDonalds Fries?

[Melissa W]

If you haven't seen this movie it is definitely entertaining and worth checking out

Supersize Me

YouTube - Super Size Me opening


of course it is a bit outdated now as we are no longer the fattest nation in the world but we are still too fat. It is just that everyone is catching up Cry:

[man_from_mars]

If you haven't seen this movie it is definitely entertaining and worth checking out

Supersize Me

YouTube - Super Size Me opening (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V168xofxgu0)


of course it is a bit outdated now as we are no longer the fattest nation in the world but we are still too fat. It is just that everyone is catching up Cry:

despite what those other people "we'll call Brits" may think laugh:

[Melissa W]

laugh:laugh:laugh:

[phlika29]

laugh:

[boyandhisdog]

Oh dear, this is going to piss Missy off!laugh:

I have always joked that I stayed so thin and fit my whole life as I have been on the Atkins diet long before it was fashionable. My family is from a rural area and I can tell you unless an apple was baked in a cobbler or pie, it wasn't getting eaten in my family's home.laugh: Anyway, my family members are all tall, fit, of generally good health but are big meat/fish eaters, low vegetable, minimal fruit, light carbs- we get our carbs from beer anyway. It's just how we were raised and so far so good.

I had always been under the impression that carbohydrates (meaning say a dish of spaghetti) were not one of the essential elements required of human nutritional requirements. Not to say they aren't an important source of energy, etc. Easy, quick energy but not necessarily the most important form.

Anyway, I thought I would read up on this subject a bit- starting with good old wikipedia. You may draw your own conclusions from what is below.

Under the Carbohydrate section, go to the paragraph on Nutrition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate

But I thought this was very interesting here. It seems to be the most educated discussion about the topic.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/75/5/951-a

So, then I started thinking about people who are hunter/gatherers in areas unlikely to have say, the Olive Garden for a big steaming plate of carbs. That led me to the Inuit hunkering down for a nice whale blubber meal with a seal blood chaser.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet

So anyway, that's what I found to stir the pot.

Rob

[Melissa W]

No worries Robert

From your very own links this is what is stated:


Based on the effects on risk of heart disease and obesity, the Institute of Medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_of_Medicine) recommends that American and Canadian adults get between 40-65% of dietary energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_energy) from carbohydrates.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate#cite_note-6) The Food and Agriculture Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Agriculture_Organization) and World Health Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization) jointly recommend that national dietary guidelines set a goal of 55-75% of total energy from carbohydrates, but only 10% directly from sugars (their term for simple carbohydrates).[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate#cite_note-7)

The recommended intake of 150 g/d ensures an adequate supply of glucose for the CNS.
Second, carbohydrate is recommended to avert symptomatic ketosis

When carbohydrates are eliminated from the diet, there is a risk that intakes of vitamins, minerals, and perhaps yet unidentified beneficial nutrients provided by carbohydrate-rich foodstuffs (eg, fiber) will be inadequate.




Of course I am just going by all that science blah blah I learned in the 9 years of school after high school. You know, college, graduate school, residency... so ofc take it all with a grain of salt wink1: which btw is one ingredient we get way too much of in our diets but that is for another conversation, another day.

hi:

[boyandhisdog]

I bet Missy is furiously crafting a response as I type!laugh:laugh:

[Melissa W]

because you told me to blink:
oh well, too late
I guess I am too quick for you grin:

[Brady Barrows]

Brady I respectfully disagree with you.
Carbohydrates and proteins are both vital for good health.
Melissa

Aloha Melissa,

While you are absolutely correct that protein is vital for good health, carbohydrate is not vital at all with the exception of fiber (a carbohydrate). "Current recommendations from the United States National Academy of Sciences, Institute of Medicine, suggest that adults should consume 20-35 grams of dietary fiber per day..." Wikipedia Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber)

If you check Wikipedia/Carbohydrate/Nutrition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate#Nutrition) you will find this statement:
"Carbohydrates are not essential nutrients in humans: the body can obtain all its energy from protein and fats." Yes, the article goes on to explain that glucose is needed, especially in the brain, but glucose can be made from protein and fat. I have never suggested that one eat a diet totally of protein and fat. I suggest after the thirty days to eat a balanced diet with the three food groups. Eating all three groups with no one group higher than the other would be better than eating high carbohydrate. There is now growing evidence that eating high carbohydrate is in fact unhealthy. I have done research on this because of the belief that was propounded in the past that eating high carbohydrate is a healthy diet. If you are interested in this research you can read the reports I have found at this url. (http://rosaceans.com/pdf/appendixX8.pdf)

You may tend to think that carbohydrate is food containing nutrients such as spinach, asparagus, or cauliflower. However, such food, high in complex carbohydrate, also contains nutrients such as protein, fat, minerals and vitamins. Carbohydrate simply does not contain any human nutrients other than fiber. Food usually contain all three food groups, but sometimes only two groups, and not so often just one. Carbohydrate is just different forms of sugar. While we do need glucose, and carbohydrate can easily be converted to glucose rather quickly, the body can convert glucose from protein and fat.

The Rosacea Diet limits carbohydrate to 30 grams a day for 30 days. After that one usually is convinced that this is another way to control rosacea, if one has the will power to do this. Most rosaceans simply can't follow such a regimen and I understand and respect such a view. However, to lambaste high protein diets is simply 'old school' since the research on the number of people eating high protein has accumulated since these diets have been promoted by physicians in the '90s. There have been reports critical of high protein diets but now there are reports that such diets are actually healthier than eating high carbohydrate and I suggest you read the reports in the link I gave above. As more people eat high protein there will continue to emerge more clinical reports showing the health risks of eating high carbohydrate and the beneficial results of eating high protein. The new school of nutrition now recognizes you need protein and fat, and you should limit carbohydrate, not completely remove it from your diet. After all, we love our sugar!

[Melissa W]

Aloha Brady hi:

I am not referring to your rosacea diet at all in any of my discussions in this thread. I am only referring to the fact that carbs are necessary for quality of life and I do not get my facts from wikipedia in general though at times it can be useful. smile:

I will just say let's agree to disagree.
If one was to cut out all carbs from their diet for the duration of their lifetime then their lifetime would not be such a great time nor a healthy one.


Best wishes,
Melissa

edit/ps check out this link as it is informative and easy to understand

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=11234


The American Heart Association doesn't recommend high-protein diets for weight loss. Some of these diets restrict healthful foods that provide essential nutrients and don't provide the variety of foods needed to adequately meet nutritional needs. People who stay on these diets very long may not get enough vitamins and minerals and face other potential health risks.

Most Americans already eat more protein than their bodies need. And eating too much protein can increase health risks.

-high protein diets don't provide some essential vitamins, minerals, fiber and other nutritional elements.

limiting carbohydrates may raise blood pressure by reducing the intake of calcium, potassium and magnesium while simultaneously increasing sodium intake.

A healthy diet that includes a variety of foods and is rich in fresh fruits and vegetables along with regular physical activity can help most people manage and maintain weight loss for both cardiovascular health and appearance.

[hozer2k]

Melissa, from the link you provided:

"High-protein animal foods are usually also high in saturated fat. Eating large amounts of high-fat foods for a sustained period raises the risk of coronary heart disease, diabetes, stroke and several types of cancer. People who can't use excess protein effectively may be at higher risk of kidney and liver disorders, and osteoporosis."

Is it possible that many of these high protein diets get a bad rap because of other secondary effects such as high saturated fats as stated? And perhaps that is why the AHA and other groups discourage them?

I have been a member of a very intelligent and knowledgeable group of members who are bodybuilders and emphasize natural approaches for several years. Steroids and that kind of thing is not tolerable. Some of the experts on nutrition see no problem with low carb diets, but do recommend a high carb meal before or after a workout because the body will need the energy. The suggestion is not too go to extreme levels to induce ketosis, but rather to limiting carbs to selective usage.

Now, I know what you are saying about the scientific studies, we are intelligent people. But having 15 years of college education myself and having done my share of research, I know there is always room for error. A good example is when science supposedly proved that bees cannot fly...but of course they can. I am not saying the research is wrong nor try to discredit it, but is it also possible that the conclusions that such groups as the AHA make are also there to help people who are not educated about diet..i.e. to protect the masses? For example, even IF a high protein diet were better, then would people abuse the saturated fat part (as they indicate can be associated with high protein). And then people would accuse them of being reckless with their suggestions? A balanced diet is an easy suggestion because its hard to pick on it...we have been using that for many years without consequence. BUT, does that necessarily mean its the best diet? Are we really pushing the limits of optimal heath? (rhetorical)

Admittedly, I am no diet expert, but I have opinions and statements from multiple sides and from many intelligent people. Unfortunately, there is no universal agreement though. Hey, its just like rosacea!

[boyandhisdog]

Seriously, did nobody read this link I provided?blink:laugh:

I thought it presented a rather balanced perspective if you read it all the way through and they cite some various studies, etc.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/75/5/951-a

[hozer2k]

Boy,
OK, I read it to make you happy. Its a pretty good read and one thing to consider is there is probably a big difference between a low carb and zero carb diet. I don't think anyone is saying to go to zero, but I leaning towards the use of a reduced carb diet. It's not so much that I think I will avoid them like the plague, but rather swap it out for either fish, lean meat, nuts, egg whites if the opportunity is presented.

[allibear]

[QUOTE]we get our carbs from beer anyway.

laugh:laugh:

Whilst reading the thread I have found many comments that I want to jump in on but thought I'd wait until I finished reading but that just made me roll off my seat I couldn't contain myself any more.

Ahhh, to be or not to be carbs is the question?

Personally I did a similar diet to that of Brady's. Admittedly I slipped up once or twice in the initial stages. For me it did work, but I had guessed what my underlying problems where, and after antibiotic treatment that worked for P&P's and experimenting with a few supplements it was the diet that finally reduced the permanent redness, stopped the flushing and took away my hypersensitivity and itching and burning I also used a herbal supplement for the first 6 weeks.

However I was one of those people who suffered 'side effects' and it is not that I minded having side effects, I get side effects from taking a paracetemol. I lost a lot of weight too quickly, in the initial 30 days it was just over a stone and any nutritionist will tell even an obese person, which I wasn't before starting it, that is unhealthy and the healthy way to lose wait is 2-3 pounds a week. After a good talk with my 'own' doctor a few weeks back I have been told that I need to eat more carbs to put weight back on. I have upped my carbs but things like brown rice, wholewheat pasta and brown breads, (yeast free, and I'll come to my reasoning for that later), and I like things like organic oatcakes, ricecakes and I have breakfast cereal. In adding it all up though I would say an average day is still only around 150gms but I may have to up that more for other health reasons. Even throughtout the high protein/low carb diet I continued to struggle with toilet trouble since upping my carbs that has improved drastically, being bulkier and fuller and cleaning out more not to mention the ease of passage and pain with the whole process and this is despite my feaces being full of gallstones which was what was causing me such terrible lower abdominal pain down in the colon, this kind of fibre is 'cushioning the blow' if you like and whist I have discomfort down there sometimes I am not doubled over with it. (I am finally realising what is causing what I would have called IBS all these yearsshock:)

I didn't know I had gallstones, I have been treated with antacids for a suspected ulcer off and on for 20 odd years. People with gallstones are also prone to kidney stones, losing weight rapidly can encourage gallstone formation just as much as gaining as can eating a high protein diet. I am now sitting six months in pain everyday waiting for surgery. Of course the diet isn't what caused them if anything it started to detox them 'out', I have had them running around for years, but having them start to come out in larger numbers and more often is a pretty dangerous thing in itself, especially when they get stuck and blow up your pancreas.

It's horses for course's, know your underlying health problems and then decide what is best for you. If your weight is boarderline this diet is not for you and will probably create more health problems. I fell underweight and as I have oesteoporosis in the lower spine this is just as dangerous for me as being over. I am still not gaining.

Fair enough I am a rare case here, for a younger, fitter, person with less underlying health issues than myself this could really work for you but you need willpower and dedication. I agree with Brady that the diet is intended for 30 days and then you reintroduce and find your balance with complex carbs. Driven seems to have found a balance that is working and everybody will be different. I pushed at it too hard and for too long, months, once I started seeing the results on my face, in my particular case this was not the right thing to do for other health reasons and I have to put into perspective now which is more important and most importantly at the moment is that I need to put weight on.

Unfortunately for me I am one of those peolple who would need to stick to this diet all the time to keep things under control. I have deep systematic yeast and fungal problems stemming back over years and they are slowly returning, dandruff, vaginal itching, facial itching occasional bad taste in my mouth, dry lips I know all the signs but again I am a rare case and I am so susceptible but that is no surprise now considering I have a gut that probably can only be compared to a rocky pebbled beach, not to mention becoming symptomatic a week before a period, which usually settles down about three four days in. Will my problems all go away with gallbladder removal? I doubt it, it could just be the beginnig as I will be left with bile on a straight drip from the liver to the intestines and a post surgical issue can be diarrhoea problems, it usually settles and a high fibre diet will help, but you only need a few bouts for all your 'good' bacteria to go down the pan. Again everybody is different so we just have to wait and see how things pan out for old 'rare case'

Of course with all this going on I have let go of the reins lately as after a breakout on medication before Christmas, being laid up in bed fit for nothing for about 6 months, waiting to get out of pain but worried about having surgery now I have lay down and gone 'what the hell' I'm fighting a losing battle.... So lets talk about Subway........and carb's from fermented booze productslaugh:

[hozer2k]

I wish I had not been eating while reading the previous post, haha.

As far as the subway thing goes, well I am not so sure. It may have just been coincidence because my face had not looked that good for a couple days after getting better initially. I had a couple of slices of pizza today to see if there would be an effect and nothing happened, at least initially. So it may not be the bread...I just don't know. Sometimes my skin can look really good (0 P&P) and other times I have 10 P&P, but usually relatively tiny and go away in a day or two. But it is so frustrating trying to identify the source of this. I thought I may have been onto something with my diet, but I just don't know. I will keep experimenting, but I don't have a good feel for my triggers...even after all these years.

[Melissa W]

Hozer the AHA is not just generalising "to protect the masses "
This is what I learned in classes that were geared toward science majors and people going into the medical field.
Here is a link concerning vegetarian diets to answer your question about high fat saturated diets.

http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/protein.html



High protein diets are unhealthy.
Studies show that the healthiest diet is one that is high in carbohydrate, low in fat, and moderate in protein. Increased intake of whole grains, fruits, and vegetables are recommended for weight control and preventing diseases such as cancer and heart disease. High-carbohydrate, low-fat, moderate-protein diets are also recommended for optimal athletic performance.

Contrary to the information on fad diets currently promoted by some popular books, a diet that is high in protein can actually contribute to disease and other health problems.



I understand what you are saying re animal protein and high saturated fat but any high protein diet for a sustained amount of time is harmful. Even one where all you are eating is so called healthy protein. You simply must balance it out with a variety of nutrients that cannot all be obtained from protein.

Carbohydrates are the body’s main source of fuel.
Carbohydrates are easily used by the body for energy.
All of the tissues and cells in our body can use glucose for energy.
Carbohydrates are needed for the central nervous system, the kidneys, the brain, the muscles (including the heart) to function properly.
Carbohydrates can be stored in the muscles and liver and later used for energy.
Carbohydrates are important in intestinal health and waste elimination


HTH

Melissa

[Melissa W]

Whilst reading the thread I have found many comments that I want to jump in on but thought I'd wait until I finished reading but that just made me roll off my seat I couldn't contain myself any more.

Ahhh, to be or not to be carbs is the question?

Personally I did a similar diet to that of Brady's. Admittedly I slipped up once or twice in the initial stages. For me it did work, but I had guessed what my underlying problems where, and after antibiotic treatment that worked for P&P's and experimenting with a few supplements it was the diet that finally reduced the permanent redness, stopped the flushing and took away my hypersensitivity and itching and burning I also used a herbal supplement for the first 6 weeks.

However I was one of those people who suffered 'side effects' and it is not that I minded having side effects, I get side effects from taking a paracetemol. I lost a lot of weight too quickly, in the initial 30 days it was just over a stone and any nutritionist will tell even an obese person, which I wasn't before starting it, that is unhealthy and the healthy way to lose wait is 2-3 pounds a week. After a good talk with my 'own' doctor a few weeks back I have been told that I need to eat more carbs to put weight back on. I have upped my carbs but things like brown rice, wholewheat pasta and brown breads, (yeast free, and I'll come to my reasoning for that later), and I like things like organic oatcakes, ricecakes and I have breakfast cereal. In adding it all up though I would say an average day is still only around 150gms but I may have to up that more for other health reasons. Even throughtout the high protein/low carb diet I continued to struggle with toilet trouble since upping my carbs that has improved drastically, being bulkier and fuller and cleaning out more not to mention the ease of passage and pain with the whole process and this is despite my feaces being full of gallstones which was what was causing me such terrible lower abdominal pain down in the colon, this kind of fibre is 'cushioning the blow' if you like and whist I have discomfort down there sometimes I am not doubled over with it. (I am finally realising what is causing what I would have called IBS all these yearsshock:)

I didn't know I had gallstones, I have been treated with antacids for a suspected ulcer off and on for 20 odd years. People with gallstones are also prone to kidney stones, losing weight rapidly can encourage gallstone formation just as much as gaining as can eating a high protein diet. I am now sitting six months in pain everyday waiting for surgery. Of course the diet isn't what caused them if anything it started to detox them 'out', I have had them running around for years, but having them start to come out in larger numbers and more often is a pretty dangerous thing in itself, especially when they get stuck and blow up your pancreas.

It's horses for course's, know your underlying health problems and then decide what is best for you. If your weight is boarderline this diet is not for you and will probably create more health problems. I fell underweight and as I have oesteoporosis in the lower spine this is just as dangerous for me as being over. I am still not gaining.

Fair enough I am a rare case here, for a younger, fitter, person with less underlying health issues than myself this could really work for you but you need willpower and dedication. I agree with Brady that the diet is intended for 30 days and then you reintroduce and find your balance with complex carbs. Driven seems to have found a balance that is working and everybody will be different. I pushed at it too hard and for too long, months, once I started seeing the results on my face, in my particular case this was not the right thing to do for other health reasons and I have to put into perspective now which is more important and most importantly at the moment is that I need to put weight on.

Unfortunately for me I am one of those peolple who would need to stick to this diet all the time to keep things under control. I have deep systematic yeast and fungal problems stemming back over years and they are slowly returning, dandruff, vaginal itching, facial itching occasional bad taste in my mouth, dry lips I know all the signs but again I am a rare case and I am so susceptible but that is no surprise now considering I have a gut that probably can only be compared to a rocky pebbled beach, not to mention becoming symptomatic a week before a period, which usually settles down about three four days in. Will my problems all go away with gallbladder removal? I doubt it, it could just be the beginnig as I will be left with bile on a straight drip from the liver to the intestines and a post surgical issue can be diarrhoea problems, it usually settles and a high fibre diet will help, but you only need a few bouts for all your 'good' bacteria to go down the pan. Again everybody is different so we just have to wait and see how things pan out for old 'rare case'

Of course with all this going on I have let go of the reins lately as after a breakout on medication before Christmas, being laid up in bed fit for nothing for about 6 months, waiting to get out of pain but worried about having surgery now I have lay down and gone 'what the hell' I'm fighting a losing battle.... So lets talk about Subway........and carb's from fermented booze productslaugh:

Hi Allibear,
I am so sorry about all the trials and tribulations you have had to deal with over the last year or so.console:

I hope you don't mind me using your experiences to highlight what are side effects of high protein diets. Period. It is not just side effects for someone who is older or infirmed. These are well documented side effects of long term high protein diets for young and healthy people.

I am glad you are doing better and thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

Best wishes,
Melissa

[Melissa W]

Just wanted to add that for the short term no problem. To make it clear I am only talking about this as a long term lifestyle diet. For the long term we need carbs despite what some people here are saying. We need them for a healthy life. I have nothing against protein but the fact is that most of us get plenty of protein. The trick is to find what foods to avoid that will trigger our rosacea symptoms and that is the issue that began this thread. The answer is not to eliminate carbs from your diet but find which foods flare your rosacea.

Good luck.

Melissa

[allibear]

What I AM trying to figure out is why after eating a foot long sub at subway I got 4 P&P a few hours later.

There are a few things to consider with this. I personally am yeast sensititive, I have known this for years. Even before Rosacea struck bad, I had dumped white carbs for brown a few years back now. White breads have a higher yeast content than brown, that still have yeast in them all the same, well most do. I used to bloat terribly when I ate bread, a sign of intolerence. I get a nice yeast free wheaten loaf which if I have in moderation causes me no problems, or bloating. I touch even brown bread with yeast in it my stomachs up like a balloon and I will get redder afterwards.

Of course it also depends what you had as a filling, most of them unless you do 'veggie' are processed and then there's the saucesgrin: but I would be inclined to lean towards the bread as the culprit.

There are two things to consider when looking at your carbs. All white flour ferments to sugar in your system which is why wholegrains are the better choice, all inadequately digested carbs will eventually ferment to sugar.

I recently have had a couple of Subways, as there is one round the corner from work and I am a bit sick now of eating my rabbit food salads in the middle of winter for lunch. They bloat me like a ballon and seem to go no where.

Also a foot long is quite a biggie and a lot of eating. The trick to improving your digestion is not to overfill the stomach in one sitting and burden the digestive system, I have found eating smaller meals more often helped my digestion in the bigginning as I would have been inclined to eat three big meals and feel stuffed afterwards. What food your system can't digest in one sitting will be left to ferment in the intestines which becomes a favoured sugary food for pathogenic bacteria.

I did an anti-candia diet , which is similar to Brady's, if you google you will find much information on it and a condition known as Leaky Gut Syndrome, which may be of interset to you, the whole Idea of the strictness in the first 4 weeks is to starve the pathogenic bacteria of it's food and allow the gut to heal. I spent time hanging out around a few forums, (CureZone is a good palce to read other peoples experiences on the subject and get a host of information), and there is a general oppinion kicking about that it won't work until you push the carbs down to around 40gms a day in the intitial stages. This is hard to achieve and when you do the weight can drastically start to fall I suppose it depends on your own metabolism.

Do some research into it, it is a fascinasting subject even if it is not right for you or the diet is unbearably strict if not impractical because you spend most of the day out of the house. I had to bring every pick of food to work with me as I am surrounded by junk food or sandwich bars, and I was sometimes starving as I don't get home until well into the evening, which often wanted me to be a bit of a 'piggie'laugh:

[allibear]

I wish I had not been eating while reading the previous post, haha.

Sorrysidehug: I have an aweful bad habit of being very descriptivelaugh:

[allibear]

Hi Allibear,
I am so sorry about all the trials and tribulations you have had to deal with over the last year or so.console:

I hope you don't mind me using your experiences to highlight what are side effects of high protein diets. Period. It is not just side effects for someone who is older or infirmed. These are well documented side effects of long term high protein diets for young and healthy people.

I am glad you are doing better and thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

Best wishes,
Melissa

Well it has simply been interesting times. Of course I have had these problems for years they have just escalated. At least it finally got me to a diagnosis and something being done about itlaugh: I would just like to share the experience so that people are aware that you don't often know exactly what is going on inside that body of yours and there are other issues to be considered before embarking on a diet of any description or you could worsen another inderlying condition. I for one didn't expect the sudden drop in weight as when I was once slightly overweight I found it very difficult to shift a few pounds in a month.

I quote from this but I have dug up much information on the subject.

http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/gallstones/

Rapid weight loss. As the body metabolizes fat during prolonged fasting and rapid weight loss—such as “crash diets”—the liver secretes extra cholesterol into bile, which can cause gallstones. In addition, the gallbladder does not empty properly.

And totally irrelevent to the topic but,

Sex. Women are twice as likely as men to develop gallstones. Excess estrogen from pregnancy, hormone replacement therapy, and birth control pills appears to increase cholesterol levels in bile and decrease gallbladder movement, which can lead to gallstones.

And I'll swear that my many years of long trem contraceptive use have lead me to half of the health problems I have today. So Women who have lots of kiddies or banned them selves from them by using contraceptive most of there adult life particularly beware before doing something that will make the weight drop off just in case!

Well I did totally blow it last weekend. Being totally pi**ed off I bought a bottle of the only alcohol I really like, Shiraz, which brings me to Rob's fermented carbs, beer and wine. I only intended to have one glass but as the night progressed I ended up drinking the whole bottle. Me and Sunnie-Bear put some music on and had a bit of a partylaugh: there are no words to describe the colour of my face and the itching that flared up by Sunday. I think It's more like SD though as the snow is falling from my head, eyebrows and forehead and it keeps going quite tight and dry. I'm itching a bit all over really and 'down below' I hope it doesn't start snowing down under. The proes are still intact and haven't turned into swimming pools and I haven't broken out....yet so hoping I might get away with this one before the other flaresCry: I got some cold tar shampoo for the head but I'm reluctant to put anything on my face until I see how it settles, if it will at all.

So I guess I finally put a second opinion on my diagnosis of intolerence to baker's and brewer's yeast, guess I'll just have to stick to hard liquorsick:

Well was I in any more pain than usual with my pea shooter of a gallbladder after this disasterous episode of self indulgence, well no, in fact I was so drunk, not having drank since August I thought I was a different person that had no problems at all could barely find the bedroom in my own house.

[Denim]

Steak and Potato's.

The person that eats the Steak is fit, the person that eats the potato's is fat.

The obesity level blossomed when low fat diets came out. Because everyone overloaded on carbs which gets you fat.

Your better off sticking to High protein, moderate fat intake with low carbs. Any problems you have with a high protein diet can be fixed with the magical drink called water.

[Brady Barrows]

Aloha Brady hi:

I am not referring to your rosacea diet at all in any of my discussions in this thread. I am only referring to the fact that carbs are necessary for quality of life and I do not get my facts from wikipedia in general though at times it can be useful. smile:

I will just say let's agree to disagree.
If one was to cut out all carbs from their diet for the duration of their lifetime then their lifetime would not be such a great time nor a healthy one.


Best wishes,
Melissa

edit/ps check out this link as it is informative and easy to understand

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=11234

Melissa,

The title of this thread and the initial post mentions my book. Changing the subject is cool as long as it becomes clear but you had to point this out now for anyone to understand. Yes, it is also cool to disagree and I respect you for your views. And I agree with you that cutting carbs totally out for the duration of life is not a good idea since obviously they are so enjoyable, and as you put it, "is a quality of life issue." Quality of life would be at a loss without sugar. I will check out your link. Here is one for you:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2129159

Mahalo and Aloha,

[Brady Barrows]

I have had Brady's book for sometime, but have been reading it today. My main problem is that how can you lift weights and gain muscle mass on such a low carb diet? I am thinking I will have to balance things out, but will just have to watch out for bad items.
hozer2k,

This article in Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition (JISSN) (http://www.jissn.com/) may be of help in understanding what is happening and has many references for your considerdation:

"When muscle glycogen and blood glucose concentrations are low, the incorporation of the carbon skeletons from amino acids into the citric acid cycle is important for maintaining the concentrations of the intermediates, and therefore a high rate of mitochondrial respiration. Thus, both muscle fat and carbohydrate burn in an amino acid flame. As discussed by Robergs and Roberts, amino acid catabolism during exercise is important for three reasons: 1) for free energy during exercise to fuel muscle contraction; 2) to increase concentrations of citric acid cycle intermediates and therefore support carbohydrate and lipid catabolism; and 3) to serve as gluconeogenic precursors. It has also been claimed that carbohydrate provides the only macronutrient substrate whose stored energy generates ATP non-aerobically. This is not the case, however, since several studies have shown that amino acid catabolism also provides a source of anaerobic energy production, Aspartate, for example, can be fermented to succinate or propionate. Interestingly, Ivy et al. and Saunders et al., reported that the addition of protein to a carbohydrate supplement enhanced endurance performance above that which occurred with carbohydrate alone."

click for source (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2129159)

[Brady Barrows]

Aloha Brady hi:

edit/ps check out this link as it is informative and easy to understand

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=11234

I read the article which is the 'old school' high carbohydrate healthy diet approach that the ADA and the USDA Food Guide Pyramid program introduced in 1992 and much research has been done on such a diet. As the article you mention clearly says, "more research is needed on their effectiveness for long-term weight loss" referring to low carbohydrate diets. Such research has been done as I have pointed out and the results have shown that high carbohydrate diets are now associated with cardiovascular disease, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, increased risk of breast cancer among postmenopausal women, and increased atherogenic metabolic risk profile of abdominally obese patients. Since these diets are popular, no doubt more money will be spent on showing not only the short term but the long term effects of low carbohydrate diets. The AHA, along with the ADA and the USDA are slow in accepting new data. But many physicians have put their careers on the line pointing out the beneficial results of eating high protein. You probably may never come around to the idea that eating high carbohydrate can be damaging to health and that is ok. But in ten years there will no doubt be more research revealed on this subject and the AHA may revise their view. As you know, this happens sometimes.

[Brady Barrows]

Yesterday though, I went to subway and got a foot long sub on white bread. Although I did not have a flush, I got about 3 P&P a few hours later. Is that bread particularly bad for you and perhaps what caused this?

items.

hozer2k,

The whole idea of the Rosacea Diet is to lower carbohydrate to 30 grams a day for thirty days to see if your rosacea improves. After the thirty days eat as much carbohydrate as you want and notice if your rosacea comes back. The white bread may be over 30 grams of carbohydrate depending on the size of the loaf. I am sure you will figure out what is triggering your rosacea by this process. For many this works and many have found how to balance the three food groups so they can control their rosacea. Everyone is different so what your diet should be to control rosacea is totally up to you.

[Melissa W]

Melissa,

The title of this thread and the initial post mentions my book. Changing the subject is cool as long as it becomes clear but you had to point this out now for anyone to understand. Yes, it is also cool to disagree and I respect you for your views. And I agree with you that cutting carbs totally out for the duration of life is not a good idea since obviously they are so enjoyable, and as you put it, "is a quality of life issue." Quality of life would be at a loss without sugar. I will check out your link. Here is one for you:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2129159

Mahalo and Aloha,

Thanks for the link Brady.
Yes, we will just have to agree to disagree and the future (if we are still around) will be the true test of the facts. And sorry for the Rosacea Diet confusion as I thought Hozer was just referring to the diet of rosaceans and not your book. I realize he did mention your book but didn't realize that he was referring to the title of it in the title of the thread. Since the term "rosacea diet" can mean lots of things now perhaps you should patent the title wink1:

[Melissa W]

Steak and Potato's.

The person that eats the Steak is fit, the person that eats the potato's is fat.

The obesity level blossomed when low fat diets came out. Because everyone overloaded on carbs which gets you fat.

Your better off sticking to High protein, moderate fat intake with low carbs. Any problems you have with a high protein diet can be fixed with the magical drink called water.

If all a person ate was steak that person would be far from fit and ditto the potato. What is needed is a healthy balance and steak and potato are not what make that healthy balance in any case. The obesity level was not caused by low fat diets.
The amount of fat in
the diet has increased from 32% to 40% in the last 50 years.
And yet we are at an all time high for obesity levels.

We now have a major health risk from excess highly refined, “high glycemic” carbohydrate foods, i.e. sugars, pastas,
white breads.
We need to eat less sugar and refined carbohydrates and emphasize those high
fiber carbohydrates and those that do not rapidly raise blood sugar.

At the same time, intakes of nutrient-rich low calorie foods have plummeted. We’re
eating fewer whole grains, starchy vegetables and fruits than ever before.

[Denim]

If all a person ate was steak that person would be far from fit and ditto the potato. What is needed is a healthy balance and steak and potato are not what make that healthy balance in any case. The obesity level was not caused by low fat diets.
The amount of fat in
the diet has increased from 32% to 40% in the last 50 years.
And yet we are at an all time high for obesity levels.

We now have a major health risk from excess highly refined, “high glycemic” carbohydrate foods, i.e. sugars, pastas,
white breads.
We need to eat less sugar and refined carbohydrates and emphasize those high
fiber carbohydrates and those that do not rapidly raise blood sugar.

At the same time, intakes of nutrient-rich low calorie foods have plummeted. We’re
eating fewer whole grains, starchy vegetables and fruits than ever before.

If all a person ate was Apples they would be far from fit as well. I'm simply pointing out that the protein (steak) is better for you than the carbs (potato) In the states, the obesity rate soared when the low fat diet became the rage, Diabetes as well.

maybe I should have used Chicken and pasta as the example. The person eating Chicken every day is far more fit than the person eating pasta every day.

Here is a link showing how superior a group of obese people benefit from a low carb diet vs a low fat diet. It's common sense if you think about your area and its native food source.

Take the humans out of the picture. Pick a place where you would live and tell me what the native food source is. I'm guessing It will be meat, fruits and veggies.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/348/21/2074

[Melissa W]

the obesity rate soared when the low fat diet became the rage,

This is simply untrue as I already pointed out. Obesity rates soared when fat in the diet increased and higher fat diets became all the rage.
The amount of fat in
the diet has increased from 32% to 40% in the last 50 years.
And yet we are at an all time high for obesity levels.


Hi Denim,

The reason people get fat is due to eating too many calories. it doesn't matter what form they come in-steak, potatoe,etc. Too many calories you get fat, too little you get thin. There is so much myth and bias surrounding food eg. I am fat because I have big bones. No you are fat because you sit and eat four doughnuts in one sitting.

You are fat b/c you eat too much. Period.


Best wishes,
Melissa

ps thanks to you know who wink1:

[J-Mill]

Here is a link showing how superior a group of obese people benefit from a low carb diet vs a low fat diet. It's common sense if you think about your area and its native food source.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/348/21/2074


I am not sure what you mean by "benefit". If by benefit you mean lose more weight in a shorter period of time than I don't think anyone would disagree with this. Atkins/Low-Protein diets will cause you to lose weight quickly if you do them right, but only at the point that your carbs are so low you reach ketosis.

From that study: Conclusions Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight lost. This finding should be interpreted with caution, given the small magnitude of overall and between-group differences in weight loss in these markedly obese subjects and the short duration of the study. Future studies evaluating long-term cardiovascular outcomes are needed before a carbohydrate-restricted diet can be endorsed.

This is hardly a sound scientific conclusion for making the definitive conclusion that people benefit more from a low-carb diet. Not only was there not a huge difference between the groups, the impact on other aspects of their health were not studied. As we know, as soon as you reintroduce carbs all that lost weight will come back in spades, so the real issue is what are the long term health implications of staying on that high protein/low carb diet. As Melissa has been pointing out, plenty. Further, they are not realistic for most people.

In support of the proposition that it is calories, not carbs that are causing obesity rates to soar I say compare the United States and my home country of Canada. We border each other, have similar urban centered cultures with significant rural farming and we are both obsessed with Bragelina.

Yet the obesity rates in Canada are less than half (per capita) of the obesity rates in the U.S. In Canada, people are carb junkies, in any major city I swear almost half the restaurants are pasta schillng carb-o-buffets. I have travelled both countries extensively and has already been mentioned, the portion sizes eaten in the states are ridiculous, probably 30-50% more than I see in restaurants back home. People in the states eat too much, that is why they lead the world in obesity, not because of carbs. In countries like Italy, France, Spain the portions sizes are smaller yet and obesity rates drop further, none of these countries eat low carb diets. http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/77786/lowcarb_craze_fails_to_cross_the_atlantic/

Korea has one of the world's lowest obesity rates and they eat rice with pretty much every meal there including breakfast. That being said this is normally well balanced with proteins and fiber.

The low-carb diet is an invention of the United States to try and counteract the frightening obesity rates. It allows people to keep cramming too many calories into their body and yet lose weight without having to exercise. It is a quick fix with serious long term health consequences. IMO most people use it as a replacement to eating sensibly and exercising and not to adjunct an already healthy lifestyle.

[Melissa W]

Just for Brady some updated medical journal articles concerning carbohydrates role in diet

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/138579.php

In contrast to the simpler or popular belief that sugar makes you fat, today's evidence shows... What appears more important is the total amount of energy intake, the energy density of the foods and the quality of the diet.

The evidence shows that added sugars do not necessarily compromise a person's intake of micronutrients. The "micronutrient dilution" myth that eating added sugars dilutes the nutrient density of a person's diet appears mostly due to misreporting and methodological constrains.



and here is an interesting debate between Dean Ornish and Stuart Trager

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=54504

The most healthful and scientifically proven approach is to go from simple carbohydrates to complex carbohydrates. These include whole-wheat flour, brown rice, and fruits, vegetables, grains, and beans in their natural forms. These foods are rich in fiber (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=362), which gives you a double benefit: First, fiber fills you up before you get too many calories. Also, fiber slows the absorption of food, so your blood sugar rises slowly, preventing an exaggerated insulin (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6098) response. Thus, you get the benefits of an Atkins-type diet without the harmful effects, which we can discuss in a while.
So, an optimal diet is low in simple carbohydrates, low in fat, and high in complex carbohydrates. It's not all or nothing -- you have a spectrum of choices. To the degree you move in this direction, you lose weight and gain health.
several problems with these studies. The most important is that they are not comparing to a very low-fat, low simple-carbohydrate diet. In every case, they are comparing to an American Heart Association diet, which is much higher in fat and also in simple carbohydrates. I've been critical of the AHA diet for many years because it doesn't do much. For example, LDL cholesterol does not come down much on either the AHA diet or the Atkins diet, whereas we found a 40% reduction in LDL cholesterol.




Interestingly, I agree with Dr Ornish about the AHA diet which is higher in fat and simple carbs. I had included them in a prior example but neglected to mention this point.


The second problem is that none of these studies measure real disease, just cholesterol and weight. In our studies, we found that heart disease actually reversed after one month, more improvement after one year, and even more after five years. One study that actually measured blood flow to the heart, published in a peer-reviewed journal (and available on my web site at WebMD, a shortcut is www.Ornish.com) showed that blood flow improved on a diet like I recommend but actually worsened on an Atkins-type diet.
So the goal is not just to lose weight but also to do so in a way that enhances your health rather than one that may harm it. Another example is that a recent study from Harvard showed that high total protein intake, particularly high intake of nondairy animal protein, may accelerate renal function decline in women with mild renal insufficiency. In a randomized controlled trial, ketogenic diets impaired cognitive performance in higher order mental processing after only one week.



in the one study funded and published by Dr. Atkins, they reported that during six months on a high-protein/low-carbohydrate diet:


70% of patients were constipated.
65% had halitosis.
54% reported headaches.
10% had hair loss (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10560).
These are in a peer-reviewed journal in a study funded by Dr. Atkins.


To the degree you eat less fat, fewer simple carbohydrates, and more fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, and (if you desire) fish, then you lose weight and gain health, and feel so much better.




There have been many misstatements that Americans have been told to eat less fat, they're eating a smaller percentage of calories from fat, but they're fatter than ever, so fat isn't the problem. Actually, Americans are eating MORE fat than ever. The only reason that the percentage of calories from fat is lower is because they're eating even more simple carbohydrates. So the goal is to reduce both, then you get even more weight loss and you enhance your health rather than harm it.

The difference between Dr. Atkins and me is that his reports are all anecdotal, whereas ours are in randomized controlled trials. It's not black and white; you have a spectrum of choices. We all agree that it's beneficial to eat fewer simple carbs. It's also beneficial to eat less fat and more fruits and vegetables.


www.Ornish.com (http://www.Ornish.com)

and lastly


Last year, the American Heart Association added C-reactive protein testing as a leading assessment tool in determining heart attack risk. High levels of C-reactive protein (CRP) in the blood indicate inflammation in blood vessel walls. Scientists now suspect that coronary-artery inflammation plays a key role in making fatty deposits in the artery vulnerable to rupture, a leading cause of heart attacks. In fact, high CRP levels may be a better predictor of heart attacks than cholesterol levels, according to new research led by Harvard professor Dr. Paul Ridker of Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston.
With the increasing concern over heart disease in women (it is the #1 killer of women over 50), CRP testing may be of particular benefit. A recently published study from Harvard University on 28,000 women found that those with the highest CRP levels were twice as likely to suffer heart problems as those with high LDL bad cholesterol.
In the new study, the UCLA team, lead by Dr. James Barnard, UCLA Department of Physiological Science, measured “entry and exit” blood values of 20 women, ages 51 to 79 years, attending a two-week program at the Pritikin Longevity Center®. All had multiple risk factors for heart disease, including obesity, hypertension, and diabetes.
At Pritikin, the women exercised daily and ate a diet focused on high-fiber carbohydrates such as fruits, vegetables and whole grains. Their diet also included lean, calcium-rich foods like nonfat milk and small, lean servings of seafood, poultry, and red meat. The women were encouraged to eat until they were full.

In just two weeks, CRP levels plunged, on average, 45%. There were also major reductions in LDL cholesterol (19%), total cholesterol (17%), insulin (26%), glucose (11%), and triglycerides (15%).
Concludes Dr. Barnard: “We know that inflammation is a key problem, a leading cause of heart disease, and now we’re learning that diet and exercise plans like the Pritikin Program may be a safe, smart solution. In fact, no other diet-and-exercise program or drug therapy, including statins, has proven to lower C-reactive protein levels so dramatically – or so rapidly.”



http://pritikin.com/eperspective/0901/0901_03.htm
basically The Pritikin Approach: a low-fat diet, not vegetarian, but largely based on vegetables, grains and fruits. Fat in the diet accounts for a mere 10%. Since 1976, more than 70,000 people have spent time at the Pritikin Longevity Centers learning how to eat healthy, prepare low-fat meals and snacks, and incorporate exercise and stress-reduction techniques into their lives. . It was an approach designed largely to promote well-being by lowring cholesterol and helping diabetics normalize their blood sugar without taking insulin. That people lost weight was an added plus.
I don't want to debate the merits of the Pritikin diet I was just adding this for background info for people not familiar with it and to make a point about CRP and health.

Best wishes,
Melissa

ps it is fun and educational debating this with all of you and I hope no one takes offense at anything said.

[Melissa W]

I am not sure what you mean by "benefit". If by benefit you mean lose more weight in a shorter period of time than I don't think anyone would disagree with this. Atkins/Low-Protein diets will cause you to lose weight quickly if you do them right, but only at the point that your carbs are so low you reach ketosis.

From that study: Conclusions Severely obese subjects with a high prevalence of diabetes or the metabolic syndrome lost more weight during six months on a carbohydrate-restricted diet than on a calorie- and fat-restricted diet, with a relative improvement in insulin sensitivity and triglyceride levels, even after adjustment for the amount of weight lost. This finding should be interpreted with caution, given the small magnitude of overall and between-group differences in weight loss in these markedly obese subjects and the short duration of the study. Future studies evaluating long-term cardiovascular outcomes are needed before a carbohydrate-restricted diet can be endorsed.

This is hardly a sound scientific conclusion for making the definitive conclusion that people benefit more from a low-carb diet. Not only was there not a huge difference between the groups, the impact on other aspects of their health were not studied. As we know, as soon as you reintroduce carbs all that lost weight will come back in spades, so the real issue is what are the long term health implications of staying on that high protein/low carb diet. As Melissa has been pointing out, plenty. Further, they are not realistic for most people.

In support of the proposition that it is calories, not carbs that are causing obesity rates to soar I say compare the United States and my home country of Canada. We border each other, have similar urban centered cultures with significant rural farming and we are both obsessed with Bragelina.

Yet the obesity rates in Canada are less than half (per capita) of the obesity rates in the U.S. In Canada, people are carb junkies, in any major city I swear almost half the restaurants are pasta schillng carb-o-buffets. I have travelled both countries extensively and has already been mentioned, the portion sizes eaten in the states are ridiculous, probably 30-50% more than I see in restaurants back home. People in the states eat too much, that is why they lead the world in obesity, not because of carbs. In countries like Italy, France, Spain the portions sizes are smaller yet and obesity rates drop further, none of these countries eat low carb diets. http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/77786/lowcarb_craze_fails_to_cross_the_atlantic/

Korea has one of the world's lowest obesity rates and they eat rice with pretty much every meal there including breakfast. That being said this is normally well balanced with proteins and fiber.

The low-carb diet is an invention of the United States to try and counteract the frightening obesity rates. It allows people to keep cramming too many calories into their body and yet lose weight without having to exercise. It is a quick fix with serious long term health consequences. IMO most people use it as a replacement to eating sensibly and exercising and not to adjunct an already healthy lifestyle.

As usual Jason, well said and I could not agree more.smile:

[Brady Barrows]

Since the term "rosacea diet" can mean lots of things now perhaps you should patent the title wink1:

Titles are not copyrightable and getting a trademark is a difficult and costly project.

[Brady Barrows]

and here is an interesting debate between Dean Ornish and Stuart Trager

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=54504



Yes, very interesting. And I agree of course with both doctors who advocate reducing simple carbohydrate and replacing it with complex carbohydrate. And if physicians can't agree on diet who are both motivated, educated, and have the credentials behind them about this subject, anyone can clearly see that discussing diet is up there with religion and politics as one of the most controversial subjects.

By the way, many years ago I tried the Pritikin Diet and it is one of the most difficult diets to follow. There are many who report it works for them, but it has not proved a popular one with the general public.

[allibear]

Steak and Potato's.

The person that eats the Steak is fit, the person that eats the potato's is fat.

The obesity level blossomed when low fat diets came out. Because everyone overloaded on carbs which gets you fat.

Your better off sticking to High protein, moderate fat intake with low carbs. Any problems you have with a high protein diet can be fixed with the magical drink called water.

Well I think the magical drink called water won't stop the consequences of losing weight too rapidly and ending up underweight which poses just as great a health risk as being over weight. I am a religous 2 litres+ a day person, didn't stop those consequences from happening.wink1:

I think the dense proteins from chicken and fish are supposed to be much better for us than steak. Red meat is antibiotic. In the UK the government are trying to educate us all in cutting our consumption of it down. On the the other hand sweet potatoes are very good for us, an alkalising food and prebiotic food source.

I'm not as 'scientifically' educated as Melissa or J-Mill on the subject but I watch the news and documantary programs and my understanding was that the obesity level and illnesses relating to it in western society, especially the USA with the UK following not far behind was down to the convenient diet that fits with our fast lifestyles and budgets of junk food and takeaways, and supermarkets full of processed food and ready meals not mention that generally we have become a nation of couch potatoes with the development of home media entertainment and the advancements in technology which where once out of the pocket for the average household.

[Brady Barrows]

Is dietary carbohydrate essential for human nutrition? (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/75/5/951-a)

[Eric]

this is a very interesting thread. For the past 3 years, i have refused to take antiobiotics for my rosacea, sure that i would be able to control it through diet. So i have experimented with all kinds of diets and have read lots of books on the subject. My conclusions are as follows:
- i think we all agree that sugar, white rice, white flour products and other refined and processed foods are a no-no for rosacea and for health in general. They are the main reason for modern illnesses such as obesity, diabetes and cancer. These diseases barely existed before these artificial foods became part of our society
- whole grains are much better than the above and cultures that eat whole grains have lower incidences of diseases than cultures that don't. That does not however mean that they are healthy. It only means that they are healthier than the alternative, in this case processed foods. Cultures that eat whole grains also tend to eat other healthy stuff such as olive oil and fish
- whole grains impact insulin and thus create problems in the body. Again, less than sugar, rice and all, but still, more insulin is releases than our bodies have been used to over millions of years
- the fear of saturated fat is unfounded and is based on the works of a couple of people in the late 50s who based their research on false evidence. Political reasons made fat the enemy and carbs the friends
- our bodies evolved over millions of years during which we ate meat, fish, nuts, leafy green veggies and berries. Why would such a diet be suddenly bad for us? Whole grains appeared around 10,000 years ago. Is that enough time for our bodies to adjust? maybe, mabye not.
- only problem with meat and fish and saturated fat today is that it is full of antiobiotics and hormones and that we cook it at very high temperatures and that we use cooked oil as well in the process
- what to do in general? eat balanced meals with bio meat, fish, eggs, veggies, some fruits (not too many due to high sugar content), nuts, olive oil and a bit of whole grains (dairy and gluten can be problematic)
- for your rosacea: learn what works for you but i agree with Brady, the more the carbs (even from fruits and whole grains), the more intense the rosacea. However, i have tried Brady"s diet and could not keep it up due to weakness and general fatigue. I need my carbs. But we don't all need our carbs in similar levels. Our bodies were made to extract glucose from protein and fat and for some people that is enough. Others need different levels of carbs, in moderation and only from good sources
- we are prisoners of a system of beliefs. we think we know better because we have identified sugar and white flour and processed foods as the unhealthy part of modern diet. but what if everything we have been told for the past 60 years about carbs vs fat was wrong? what is fat is our friend and carbs the enemy, even the good carbs?

[hozer2k]

Just to clarify, I was referring to Brady's book, but not entirely. It was more of just something to add to the conversation since it was directly related. I am not sure if I will try Brady's 30g carb diet because it may just be unrealistic long term and I need a long term solution. However, I will/am doing a low carb diet that is less than most and higher in protein.

I think that for the most part this thread has been constructive and I have learned from both sides and that is important. One sided discussions are not very meaningful. One thing I do suspect though is that both camps seem to have already come to a conclusion and are not just finding ways to reinforce this, rather than objectively trying to see what is offered up. But just MY opinion on this.

Ultimately, I cannot look for diet to be THE solution. I need to find a way to maximize the benefits that a good diet can provide, but not to let it adversely affect my health. That is why this is only one component of the many things I am trying to beat this disease. I have set a goal that by year's end I will not have P&P anymore...I will deal with the redness later. One way or another, I am optimistic I will find my solution. Thanks for all of the feedback.

[allibear]

Hi Hozer2khi:
I don't think there are two sides of the camp trying to reinforce opinions. People will join in the banter and offer their experiences some of which have tried different diet approaches to deal with their skin conditions.

The good thing about taking on a diet such as Brady's for a short period of time is that you do start to see what your food intolerences are, (not to be confused with a food allergy), and even removing these intolerences can make a difference and you can find a balance that can maintain some kind of control but I agree that you need to weigh up that balance against long term health and against other co-existing health issues if you have any.

I am still an advocater of this diet approach if you want to wipe all symptoms out of the way, (except perhaps skin danage), and keep them at bay. I still eat by the principles of it, (with a few complete going off the rails sessions along the way, but hey we're only humanlaugh:), however maintainig an extremely low carb diet against a protein overload is just not an option for me but each one of us is different inside and what will work for one won't work for another and some of us have other health issues and hormonal issues which make the job an even bigger challenge.

IMHO It is unfortunate and a medical tragedy that there isn't the magic cure out there for us and on the big part we are left to just puckle through with this condition and try and sort it out for ourselves through much experimentation and trial and error in the first place.

I think this has been a great thread with many links being posted to interesting reading. Debate is great on forums and it takes a lot of people with different views and experiences to create a good one to join in the party.

I for one was waiting to see what links Brady V's Mellissa where going to be produced next for the 'for and against' argument and at what point J-Mill was going to stop watching from the balcony and come and play in the main arena. Great stuff better than watching tellythumbs:

[Brady Barrows]

Some interesting items discussed at the 67th Annual AAD Convention in SF that goes along with this subject:

A New Look at the Role of Diet in Acne and Rosacea, Dr. Leyden.

Acne improves with a popular, low glycemic diet from South Beach.

http://www.aad.org/meetings/annual/

I do not recall the AAD ever discussing the role of diet with either acne or rosacea before, but maybe they have done this in the past? It is however interesting that dermatologists are now discussing this subject. Hopefully abstracts of the discussion will be forthcoming.

[Brady Barrows]

Just to clarify, I was referring to Brady's book, but not entirely. It was more of just something to add to the conversation since it was directly related. I am not sure if I will try Brady's 30g carb diet because it may just be unrealistic long term and I need a long term solution. However, I will/am doing a low carb diet that is less than most and higher in protein.

I think that for the most part this thread has been constructive and I have learned from both sides and that is important. One sided discussions are not very meaningful. One thing I do suspect though is that both camps seem to have already come to a conclusion and are not just finding ways to reinforce this, rather than objectively trying to see what is offered up. But just MY opinion on this.

Ultimately, I cannot look for diet to be THE solution. I need to find a way to maximize the benefits that a good diet can provide, but not to let it adversely affect my health. That is why this is only one component of the many things I am trying to beat this disease. I have set a goal that by year's end I will not have P&P anymore...I will deal with the redness later. One way or another, I am optimistic I will find my solution. Thanks for all of the feedback.

hozer,

I don't think anyone can come up with a 'perfect diet' to control rosacea for every rosacean since we are suffering with such a broadly defined term 'rosacea.' I am currently reading Frank Powell's new book on rosacea and his book is primarily focused on diagnosis and management for physicians, but so far it is an easy read for me. I will be posting a review of the book soon. The reason I bring this up is that when a patient is diagnosed with rosacea, as I mention in my book, there are so many rosacea mimics that need to be differentiated and adds to the confusion of this disease. So that is why I clearly state over and over in my book that this is a THIRTY DAY diet. After the thirty days, you will have to find the 'perfect diet' to control your own individual rosacea condition. What works for you may or may not work for some other rosacean who has his or her own set of peculiar signs and symptoms. The main idea is to give you the proof that even Melissa and others agree upon, simple carbohydrate does indeed trigger rosacea in some rosacea patients. But if you will notice, the medical authorities are slow to add sugar and simple carbohydrate as triggers for rosacea. I think in time this will change and will be added to 'official' medical texts. Very slow process. However, you seem to have figured out your own body and what carbs you need. Everyone, including myself agrees that eating spinach, cauliflower, asparagus, cabbage, celery, collards, cucumbers, dandelion greens, egg plant, garlic, kale, mushrooms, okra, swiss chard and other green complex carbohydrate is good for a healthy diet and I list this in my chapter for vegetarian along with a long list of foods. Even Atkins, Protein Power, South Beach all say these complex carbohydrate foods are good for health. The perfect diet is the one that works for you.

And I have said over and over in my book that the Rosacea Diet is not a cure for rosacea and is simply one more item to use in the armamentarium to fight rosacea to control it.

[J-Mill]

Some interesting items discussed at the 67th Annual AAD Convention in SF that goes along with this subject:

A New Look at the Role of Diet in Acne and Rosacea, Dr. Leyden.

Acne improves with a popular, low glycemic diet from South Beach.

http://www.aad.org/meetings/annual/

I do not recall the AAD ever discussing the role of diet with either acne or rosacea before, but maybe they have done this in the past? It is however interesting that dermatologists are now discussing this subject. Hopefully abstracts of the discussion will be forthcoming.

I read this last week and found it very interesting. They did indeed resile from their no link between acne and diet position about 5 years a go actually. They started saying the issue was "up in the air" and now they say for at least some there is a definite link.

It seems to reason that for some, foods will invoke inflammation and thus promote inflammatory conditions like acne. It is accepted for Rosacea and has been for some time of course.

[J-Mill]

Hi Hozer2khi:

I for one was waiting to see what links Brady V's Mellissa where going to be produced next for the 'for and against' argument and at what point J-Mill was going to stop watching from the balcony and come and play in the main arena. Great stuff better than watching tellythumbs:

You know it was driving me nuts not to express an opinion....laugh:

[Brady Barrows]

Hi Hozer2khi:

I for one was waiting to see what links Brady V's Mellissa where going to be produced next for the 'for and against' argument and at what point J-Mill was going to stop watching from the balcony and come and play in the main arena. Great stuff better than watching tellythumbs:

Aloha Allibear,

I think that Melissa and I are in agreement to be polite and respectful of each other's views and we do agree with many things, as I said, life without carbohydrate would be dull. We need a rush now and then and sugar can sure spike up our lives and flush out the depression and dullness. My favorite sugar is a single malt twelve year old Scotch. I have never advocated eliminating carbohydrate ever, just reducing it. But I appreciate your interest and checking out the links. The cool thing is that you come to your own conclusion from this discussion which has been enjoyable. And so far, this thread has been delightful. Hopefully others will enjoy it.

[Brady Barrows]

You know it was driving me nuts not to express an opinion....laugh:

Shoot. Shield up. blush:

[Melissa W]

Aloha Allibear,

I think that Melissa and I are in agreement to be polite and respectful of each other's views and we do agree with many things, as I said, life without carbohydrate would be dull. We need a rush now and then and sugar can sure spike up our lives and flush out the depression and dullness. My favorite sugar is a single malt twelve year old Scotch. I have never advocated eliminating carbohydrate ever, just reducing it. But I appreciate your interest and checking out the links. The cool thing is that you come to your own conclusion from this discussion which has been enjoyable. And so far, this thread has been delightful. Hopefully others will enjoy it.


That is nice Brady but we prefer a scotch a bit older than an adolescent laugh:
Have you ever tried a Glenlivet 18? Very nice yes:

http://www.forpeatsake.com/The+Glenlivet/The+Glenlivet+18+Years+Old/

[Melissa W]

I read this last week and found it very interesting. They did indeed resile from their no link between acne and diet position about 5 years a go actually. They started saying the issue was "up in the air" and now they say for at least some there is a definite link.

It seems to reason that for some, foods will invoke inflammation and thus promote inflammatory conditions like acne. It is accepted for Rosacea and has been for some time of course.

That book I reviewed for the Forum has much discussion in the way of foods and how they affect our skin regarding inflammation, acne etc.

The Clear Skin Diet by Logan and Treloar

I found it to be a very enjoyable book and a good reference.

Pity most derms I know still don't acknowledge that food can play a role in skin health.

[Melissa W]

this is a very interesting thread. For the past 3 years, i have refused to take antiobiotics for my rosacea, sure that i would be able to control it through diet. So i have experimented with all kinds of diets and have read lots of books on the subject. My conclusions are as follows:
- i think we all agree that sugar, white rice, white flour products and other refined and processed foods are a no-no for rosacea and for health in general. They are the main reason for modern illnesses such as obesity, diabetes and cancer. These diseases barely existed before these artificial foods became part of our society
- whole grains are much better than the above and cultures that eat whole grains have lower incidences of diseases than cultures that don't. That does not however mean that they are healthy. It only means that they are healthier than the alternative, in this case processed foods. Cultures that eat whole grains also tend to eat other healthy stuff such as olive oil and fish
- whole grains impact insulin and thus create problems in the body. Again, less than sugar, rice and all, but still, more insulin is releases than our bodies have been used to over millions of years
- the fear of saturated fat is unfounded and is based on the works of a couple of people in the late 50s who based their research on false evidence. Political reasons made fat the enemy and carbs the friends
- our bodies evolved over millions of years during which we ate meat, fish, nuts, leafy green veggies and berries. Why would such a diet be suddenly bad for us? Whole grains appeared around 10,000 years ago. Is that enough time for our bodies to adjust? maybe, mabye not.
- only problem with meat and fish and saturated fat today is that it is full of antiobiotics and hormones and that we cook it at very high temperatures and that we use cooked oil as well in the process
- what to do in general? eat balanced meals with bio meat, fish, eggs, veggies, some fruits (not too many due to high sugar content), nuts, olive oil and a bit of whole grains (dairy and gluten can be problematic)
- for your rosacea: learn what works for you but i agree with Brady, the more the carbs (even from fruits and whole grains), the more intense the rosacea. However, i have tried Brady"s diet and could not keep it up due to weakness and general fatigue. I need my carbs. But we don't all need our carbs in similar levels. Our bodies were made to extract glucose from protein and fat and for some people that is enough. Others need different levels of carbs, in moderation and only from good sources
- we are prisoners of a system of beliefs. we think we know better because we have identified sugar and white flour and processed foods as the unhealthy part of modern diet. but what if everything we have been told for the past 60 years about carbs vs fat was wrong? what is fat is our friend and carbs the enemy, even the good carbs?

Just one more thing LOL smile:

Most nutrition experts believe that what you include in your diet is as important as what you exclude. There are over 100,000 protective substances found in vegetables, fruits, legumes and whole grains.

Choose foods that are more dense in nutrients (such as fruits, vegetables and whole grains) and less dense in calories.

Have some good fats such as fish oil containing omega 3 fatty acids each day. Eat less salt and drink more tea. Eat mindfully. Calories count. Quality over quantity. Also, most experts agree that moderate exercise and stress management techniques are also beneficial.

It shouldn't be so much low-fat versus low-carb. It’s the right types of fats and carbs as well as the right amounts of other these and other nutrients.

Eat more whole grains and legumes
Eat more fruits and vegetables
Eat less refined carbohydrates
Eat less animal products
Exercise more (diet does not exist in a vacuum)


1. Whole grain carbs are better than refined carbs
2. Omega-3s are good, trans fats are bad, and some amount of saturated fats is okay
3. the more fruits and veggies you eat, the better
4. Allow some room for error, and
5. eat more “filling” foods (fats, proteins, and fiber as opposed to candy and soda). And as long as you follow (1) through (3), you can eat at least a little of everything.

Eat in moderation and eat a variety of foods, so that any one thing you are eating doesn’t trigger problems in your body. Try and eat foods not full of pesticides and preservatives. Organic and fresh and local is best.
Mangage stress have strong social connections and exercise!

There are exceptions to these recommendations though. For example a diabetic has to eat differently than a non diabetic.
There will always be special dietary needs or exceptions, such as food allergies, or the fact that a person in excellent physical condition with good genes can probably get away with eating red meats and junks foods where others can’t.
I am generalising for the majority of people in the population and just want to make that clear. This does not apply to everyone. And there are clear differences between individuals.

If you ever have critically analyzed a study you will realize that there is always more research to be done. That is why there are general consensuses among the nutrition health community on what constitutes a healthy diet and no absolute truths b/c nothing is certain. But most likely there is more data supporting the general consensus.

What’s good for us humans is what’s good for our planet.
Eating a more plant-based diet is one of the most powerful ways that individuals can relieve the methane-based assaults to global warming.


Best wishes,
Melissa

[Brady Barrows]

That is nice Brady but we prefer a scotch a bit older than an adolescent laugh:
Have you ever tried a Glenlivet 18? Very nice yes:

http://www.forpeatsake.com/The+Glenlivet/The+Glenlivet+18+Years+Old/

Ship me a bottle and I will enjoy sampling it. wink1:

[allibear]

You know it was driving me nuts not to express an opinion....laugh:

I had this vision of you sitting up on the balcony ready to throw a basket of rotten eggs downlaugh:

[allibear]

Aloha Allibear,

I think that Melissa and I are in agreement to be polite and respectful of each other's views and we do agree with many things, as I said, life without carbohydrate would be dull. We need a rush now and then and sugar can sure spike up our lives and flush out the depression and dullness. My favorite sugar is a single malt twelve year old Scotch. I have never advocated eliminating carbohydrate ever, just reducing it. But I appreciate your interest and checking out the links. The cool thing is that you come to your own conclusion from this discussion which has been enjoyable. And so far, this thread has been delightful. Hopefully others will enjoy it.

I have found the whole subject of the gut health issue and diet fascinating not only from the Rosacea point of view but for overall health and it's not that I would have intentions of venturing far from the principles. I was doing OK with just altering the balance a bit to suit the current situation until I totally derailed and crashed and burnt, (literallyblush:) It's a pitty that it turns out I had the underlying problem that I did because there are some days that I get intestinal blockages with these things that even water seems to have a hard time pushing past the dam and I'm sure this doesn't help with the state of the gut. I pray for a happy outcome post surgery with no arising complications.

I never have had a problem avoiding the refined sugary stuff apart from the odd occasion and I think everyone will be in agreement that it is not the way to go. However it is unfortunate for myself that my sugary rush comes from a nice glass of Shiraz occasionlly as I really detest the taste of most other alcohols and I think we will all agree that we like a little tipple now and again to unwind after a hard week at work however my favorite definately is now bannedlaugh: Life's a b*t*h!

But I think it's rather cute that you and Mellissa can cosy up together for a nice glass of Whiskeykissing:

[allibear]

Mangage stress have strong social connections

Ah well that's me well out on those two countslaugh:

[Denim]

This is simply untrue as I already pointed out. Obesity rates soared when fat in the diet increased and higher fat diets became all the rage.

Hi Denim,

The reason people get fat is due to eating too many calories. it doesn't matter what form they come in-steak, potatoe,etc. Too many calories you get fat, too little you get thin. There is so much myth and bias surrounding food eg. I am fat because I have big bones. No you are fat because you sit and eat four doughnuts in one sitting.

You are fat b/c you eat too much. Period.


Best wishes,
Melissa

ps thanks to you know who wink1:


This comes form the source, I'm the moderator so I'm right? Obesity soared in the states when the low fat diets came to favor. Simple enough to look up. Carbs, the tasty stuff that sticks to your ribs and gets you fat.

You could eat the same caloric intake of protein and carbs, the carbs will convert to fat much quickeer than the protein. I agree people are fat because they eat too much and on top of that they don't excersize enough. But if you are talking strictly about food intake, carbs will get you more fat, quicker than protein.


It works like this: When we eat carbohydrates (especially the rapidly absorbed, simple carbohydrates like sugar, potatoes, pasta, white rice, and anything made from refined flour - you know, the good stuff) we stimulate the secretion of insulin. Insulin causes glucose (the product of carbohydrate digestion) to be rapidly absorbed into the tissues for fuel consumption. Any "extra" glucose (and the vast majority of the carbohydrates we eat are not immediately needed for fuel, and are therefore "extra" calories) are quickly converted to and stored as - ta da! - fat.

Furthermore, once the glucose levels drop, the insulin levels rapidly fall in turn - and nothing promotes hunger more than a carbohydrate meal followed by a rapid spike then rapid drop in insulin levels. So, 2 - 4 hours after a high carbohydrate meal we suddenly crave (ravenously, desperately,) more carbohydrates - this minute. The cycle repeats, over and over - we eat carbos, store fat, get hungry, and seek out yet more carbs.

[J-Mill]

This comes form the source, I'm the moderator so I'm right?


With all due respect to you, this comment is rude and you should apologize for it (pm her). Melissa is disagreeing with you respectfully and is not making this personal at all. That is a cheap shot. Mr. Barrows and Melissa have been at odds throughout this thread on this very issue and he has responded to her posts with his opinion backed by the studies that support his side. It is also false, Melissa has posted copious links to studies supporting her position along with logical anecdotal reasons, she has not just stated a position as though it is gospel and not provided anything to back it up.


Obesity soared in the states when the low fat diets came to favor. Simple enough to look up. Carbs, the tasty stuff that sticks to your ribs and gets you fat.


I would either post data to support this or agree to disagree. The whole reason low fat diets became a fad was because of crazy obesity rates in the U.S. The obesity came first and was caused by increased portion sizes and an increasingly sedentary life style. If you look at obesity rates in the United States its been rising for decades, not just in the 80's and 90's when low fat diets first surfaced.



You could eat the same caloric intake of protein and carbs, the carbs will convert to fat much quickeer than the protein. I agree people are fat because they eat too much and on top of that they don't excersize enough. But if you are talking strictly about food intake, carbs will get you more fat, quicker than protein.


No one has disagreed with this. This is a separate issue. The point is a diet high in proteins and low in carbs (I am talking Atkin's style low) is unhealthy in the opinion of some posting here and the studies to back that up have been posted.


It works like this: When we eat carbohydrates (especially the rapidly absorbed, simple carbohydrates like sugar, potatoes, pasta, white rice, and anything made from refined flour - you know, the good stuff) we stimulate the secretion of insulin. Insulin causes glucose (the product of carbohydrate digestion) to be rapidly absorbed into the tissues for fuel consumption. Any "extra" glucose (and the vast majority of the carbohydrates we eat are not immediately needed for fuel, and are therefore "extra" calories) are quickly converted to and stored as - ta da! - fat.

Furthermore, once the glucose levels drop, the insulin levels rapidly fall in turn - and nothing promotes hunger more than a carbohydrate meal followed by a rapid spike then rapid drop in insulin levels. So, 2 - 4 hours after a high carbohydrate meal we suddenly crave (ravenously, desperately,) more carbohydrates - this minute. The cycle repeats, over and over - we eat carbos, store fat, get hungry, and seek out yet more carbs.

Again, if you read the posts, everyone appears to agree that simple refined carbs are bad dietary sources to be avoided. Complex carbs are a different story. The point is to have a well balanced diet that includes a healthy portion of complex carbs. The reason have been posted previously and I won't repeat them.

So as you can see there is some common ground here where everyone agrees and some areas of disagreement. We should be able to discuss this however in a mature fashion without kicking the sand in the box in people's faces. wink1:

[Melissa W]

Jason, thank you very much for your thoughtful post.

Denim has always been a troublemaker on this and other forums. The info as you pointed out is all in this thread with the articles backing it up.

Denim, instead of worrying about diets and such perhaps you can work on your hostility issues. It takes a lot of effort to be so unhappy and anger and hostility will give you a heart attack way faster than any of these diets that we have been discussing in this thread.

Just for you Denim

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20021118/hostility-predicts-heart-disease

[chenoarae]

This comes form the source, I'm the moderator so I'm right? Obesity soared in the states when the low fat diets came to favor. Simple enough to look up. Carbs, the tasty stuff that sticks to your ribs and gets you fat.

You could eat the same caloric intake of protein and carbs, the carbs will convert to fat much quickeer than the protein. I agree people are fat because they eat too much and on top of that they don't excersize enough. But if you are talking strictly about food intake, carbs will get you more fat, quicker than protein.


It works like this: When we eat carbohydrates (especially the rapidly absorbed, simple carbohydrates like sugar, potatoes, pasta, white rice, and anything made from refined flour - you know, the good stuff) we stimulate the secretion of insulin. Insulin causes glucose (the product of carbohydrate digestion) to be rapidly absorbed into the tissues for fuel consumption. Any "extra" glucose (and the vast majority of the carbohydrates we eat are not immediately needed for fuel, and are therefore "extra" calories) are quickly converted to and stored as - ta da! - fat.

Furthermore, once the glucose levels drop, the insulin levels rapidly fall in turn - and nothing promotes hunger more than a carbohydrate meal followed by a rapid spike then rapid drop in insulin levels. So, 2 - 4 hours after a high carbohydrate meal we suddenly crave (ravenously, desperately,) more carbohydrates - this minute. The cycle repeats, over and over - we eat carbos, store fat, get hungry, and seek out yet more carbs.


I'm sorry, I don't want to beat a dead horse but I am a personal trainer and I am in school for my RN so I have to say something here...

It is true that carbs are utilized in the body faster than protein, however an excess of either nutrient is going to make you fat, end of story. Unless there is a glandular problem or some other medical issue, eat more than you burn and whatever you eat in excess (be it carbs, protein or fat) will be stored on your thighs, hips etc.

Having had experience with a number of clients on high protein, low carb diets (despite my urgings to take on a more well-rounded diet) I can also tell you from personal experience that a low-carb diet, for the majority of society, is extremely difficult to adhere to. What VERY frequently happens is that people, after eating high protein, high fat meals would "cheat" and binge on bread or alcohol (strictly forbidden of course), which tended to lead to more cheating and binging. And then what you've got is a high-fat, high-protein and high-carb diet. Which of course leads to a lot of excess weight.

These clients, without exception, had the largest amount of weight fluctuation and slowest continual weight loss of anyone who trained at the studio I worked at.

[allibear]

Furthermore, once the glucose levels drop, the insulin levels rapidly fall in turn - and nothing promotes hunger more than a carbohydrate meal followed by a rapid spike then rapid drop in insulin levels. So, 2 - 4 hours after a high carbohydrate meal we suddenly crave (ravenously, desperately,) more carbohydrates - this minute. The cycle repeats, over and over - we eat carbos, store fat, get hungry, and seek out yet more carbs.

Well again I don't have any scientific evidence other than that produced by my own disfunctional body but when I went to the so called 'Atkins' type lows of that required for success of the anti-candida diet the big problem was hunger in between meals. It was OK on days I was home from work when I could maybe have 4 or 5 small things rather than 3 meals but on work days it was a nightmare when you don't get home to about 7 in the evening. I typically just had mixed salad with chicken or slamon as my packed lunch brought to work. By mid afternoon I was dying to run out and get something to nibble like a packet of crisps and I gave these up years ago and have never had cravings, but all of a sudden ....Cry: I think it was just something you knew you could buy local that would make you feel full until dinner, (I never did that though). I usually blew my carb. allowance at breakfast for the day it maybe only left me room for somehing like a ricecake later on.

But that's not just me I have seen the odd post drop in on other threads regarding doing this type of high protein/low carb. diet and other people having had similar experiences with the hunger and when you have a physical job running around feeling hungry isn't much joy and sometimes I would actually feel a bit weak and light headed.

I still most days have a salad into work with me for lunch only difference I have the addition of a few extra carbs like a slice of yeast free wholegrain wheaten and bran bread and maybe a couple of my little organic oatcakes at tea break time and I can go all day without feelings of weakness, and I don't even think or have any desire to eat until dinner time or any cravings for the stuff I definately shouldn't be eating.

I think here you are referring more to the people who are in the unfortunate position to maybe have the 'sugar addiction' and eat a lot of simple carbohydrates in a day which I think everyone has agreed we all know that that is not good. An addiction is an addiction all the same and for these people the carb. reduction is a very difficult thing to do. It would be like me trying to stop smoking.

[allibear]

What VERY frequently happens is that people, after eating high protein, high fat meals would "cheat" and binge on bread or alcohol (strictly forbidden of course), which tended to lead to more cheating and binging

Hi chenoaraehi:

I didn't see your post go up but I think that backs up exactly where I was trying to come from. I don't have a sweet tooth but like the savoury stuff and admit I liked a packet of potato crisps at lunchtime on work days. I gave these up maybe around 2 1/2 years ago now as a wee tweak to try and shed a few pounds, (I was once about stone overweight), and I have never had a craving for them or particularly missed them until I went on a high protein/low carb diet. Weird

[man_from_mars]

hmmm....let's decide this once and for all ...
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5390547

[J-Mill]

hmmm....let's decide this once and for all ...
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5390547

Problem with news programs, they all have their own views of what the study says, here is the Time's take which finds that none of the diets were superior to the other, it was about caloric intake:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1881795,00.html

[hozer2k]

What are good sources of complex carbs that are EASY and CONVENIENT to prepare? Think ridiculously easy. I don't have a lot of time to prepare foods and am often on the go. My typical diet consists of cold cuts, nuts, egg whites (can nuke these), protein shakes, beef jerky, uncooked veggies...you get the point. Or for that matter, any good protein or fat sources that are easily accessed would be useful too.

[chenoarae]

What are good sources of complex carbs that are EASY and CONVENIENT to prepare? Think ridiculously easy. I don't have a lot of time to prepare foods and am often on the go. My typical diet consists of cold cuts, nuts, egg whites (can nuke these), protein shakes, beef jerky, uncooked veggies...you get the point. Or for that matter, any good protein or fat sources that are easily accessed would be useful too.

Carbs: Apples, natch...potatoes, whole wheat pastas, oatmeal (not the instant kind), yams, beans, shredded wheat, brown rice. Also, this isn't an extensive posting but seems up your alley hozer:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/diet-forum/53870-help-convenient-source-good-complex-carb-quick-eat.html

[Melissa W]

hmmm....let's decide this once and for all ...
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5390547

I am not talking about low carb vs low fat Al but of a more balanced way of eating. I prefer the Mediterranean lifestyle of eating in general.

Problem with news programs, they all have their own views of what the study says, here is the Time's take which finds that none of the diets were superior to the other, it was about caloric intake:

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1881795,00.html

Exactly. If you take in more calories than you burn you will gain weight.

What are good sources of complex carbs that are EASY and CONVENIENT to prepare? Think ridiculously easy. I don't have a lot of time to prepare foods and am often on the go. My typical diet consists of cold cuts, nuts, egg whites (can nuke these), protein shakes, beef jerky, uncooked veggies...you get the point. Or for that matter, any good protein or fat sources that are easily accessed would be useful too.
Pasta
MacaroniSpaghettiBrown rice
Potatoes
Other root vegetablesWholemeal breads
Granary bread
Brown bread
Pitta bread
Bagel
Wholegrain cereals
High fiber breakfast cereals
Porridge oats
All bran
Wheetabix
Shredded wheat
Ryvita crispbread
Muesli
Cassava
CornYam
Oatcakes
Peas
Beans
Lentils


http://www.howstuffworks.com/carbohydrate-basics-ga.htm/printable

http://nutrition.about.com/od/askyournutritionist/f/complex.htm

[GJ]

What are good sources of complex carbs that are EASY and CONVENIENT to prepare? Think ridiculously easy. I don't have a lot of time to prepare foods and am often on the go. My typical diet consists of cold cuts, nuts, egg whites (can nuke these), protein shakes, beef jerky, uncooked veggies...you get the point. Or for that matter, any good protein or fat sources that are easily accessed would be useful too.


Bananas. Tomatoes. Fruits of all sorts: readily gettable, portable, readily eatable.
Avocados are a great choice: full of nutrients and good fat.
Mackerel and salmon are a first class source of protein and good fat.

[man_from_mars]

Pasta
MacaroniSpaghettiBrown rice
Potatoes
Other root vegetablesWholemeal breads
Granary bread
Brown bread
Pitta bread
Bagel
Wholegrain cereals
High fiber breakfast cereals
Porridge oats
All bran
Wheetabix
Shredded wheat
Ryvita crispbread
Muesli
Cassava
CornYam
Oatcakes
Peas
Beans
Lentils


We must have complete opposite metabolisms Missy blink:
because I would quickly be back to looking like a bowling ball
within a month or two of eating all the grains

Also would have to go back to popping antacids tabs like candy
and probably be on diabetic/cholesterol lowering medicine the rest of my life like my brother.

-Al

[J-Mill]

We must have complete opposite metabolisms Missy blink:
because I would quickly be back to looking like a bowling ball
within a month or two of eating all the grains

Also would have to go back to popping antacids tabs like candy
and probably be on diabetic/cholesterol lowering medicine the rest of my life like my brother.

-Al

I thought this was you:


http://www.savingadvice.com/images/blog/hello-kitty-bowling-ball.jpg


shock:

[man_from_mars]

or more like ...
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RFsKTg-RL._SS500_.jpg

[Melissa W]

nowink:We must have complete opposite metabolisms Missy
because I would quickly be back to looking like a bowling ball
within a month or two of eating all the grains

Also would have to go back to popping antacids tabs like candy
and probably be on diabetic/cholesterol lowering medicine the rest of my life like my brother.

-Al

laugh:
I was just giving a hozer a variety of things to choose from laugh:

and that's not all supposed to be eaten in one day nowink:

I do love rice and beans and think it is a great meal and easy to prepare yes:

[allibear]

hmmm....let's decide this once and for all ...
http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=5390547

OMG did you see the size of the piece of meat on those plates versus the veggies?

I don't know what the take is on protein protioning is in the 'Rosacea Diet' but from the 'Anti-Candida diet' point of view, which seems to be along similar lines it is important the piece of protein in a given meal is no larger than a computer mouse not the size of the flammin' monitor, you know so as not to totally kaput your kidneys.

I'll vouce for the high protein/ low carb approach for weight loss and weight loss fast, if that is what we were taking about as the issue, because the weight does fall quickly, but that is an unhealthy way to lose weight if weight is why you want to do this kind of diet and it also means for those Rosaceans that would like to try it to see if it improves their condition they would need to look at where their weight is now and if their bodies are going to handle it.

God I would love to just get at least one cup size back on my boobs laugh:

[allibear]

or more like ...
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RFsKTg-RL._SS500_.jpg

I definately need some more CARBS!

[Melissa W]

Allibear wrote:
God I would love to just get at least one cup size back on my boobs laugh:

LOL You crack me up Alli grin:
You always me smile and thanks for that!!

[allibear]

Rob says I can't come and visit until I get two cup sizes backlaugh: So I need to start munching my way through that list of wholegrains that you posted,....FASTlaugh:laugh:

[Melissa W]

At least you can do something about that but what can Rob do about his cup size? wink1:
laugh:

[allibear]

At least you can do something about that but what can Rob do about his cup size? wink1:
laugh:

Too many carbs. from beer can do this Drunk2: and a lot more to a man woot:

[Melissa W]

Too many carbs. from beer can do this Drunk2: and a lot more to a man woot:

Don't you mean too much beer can do a lot less to a man so to speak laugh:

[allibear]

Don't you mean too much beer can do a lot less to a man so to speak laugh:

LOL, Ye that's exactly what I meant, I think I picked totally the wrong smiley image to express my thoughtslaugh:

[Melissa W]

great minds...grin:

[Melissa W]

Here's a link from WebMD that is current.
However it doesn't add any new info so just fyi

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/nutrition-labels-9/carbohydrates

[allibear]

Here's a link from WebMD that is current.
However it doesn't add any new info so just fyi

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/nutrition-labels-9/carbohydrates

That's intersesting;

To meet the body's daily nutritional needs while minimizing risk for chronic disease, adults should get 45% to 65% of their calories from carbohydrates, 20% to 35% from fat, and 10% to 35% from protein.

[boyandhisdog]

Alli-
Just b/c I haven't posted, doesn't mean I haven't been reading.

I have been using my time wisely and "studying" with the product linked below for your visit when you are back to your buxom best. Coincidentally, the product below isn't designed to help with rosacea, but with regular use, I'm given to understand you won't care anymore.laugh:

https://www.officialextenze.com/?cid=913741

laugh:

[allibear]

Alli-
Just b/c I haven't posted, doesn't mean I haven't been reading.

I have been using my time wisely and "studying" with the product linked below for your visit when you are back to your buxom best. Coincidentally, the product below isn't designed to help with rosacea, but with regular use, I'm given to understand you won't care anymore.laugh:

https://www.officialextenze.com/?cid=913741

laugh:

LOL, that sounds like some sort of obscure digestive enzyme laugh:laugh: Might help man_from_mars with some of those huge portions of protein that certainly look like a bit of a mouthfulshock:

[man_from_mars]

too much steak or too much Enzyte either way I'm bound to have a heart attack
so if I have my preference I'll choose to go out during the next Saturn launch laugh:

[boyandhisdog]

Might help man_from_mars with some of those huge portions of protein that certainly look like a bit of a mouthfulshock:

laugh:

Alli-
That may be one of the finest double entendre of all time.laugh:laugh:

Rob

[Eric]

there are plenty of books and articles out there supporting low fat or mediteranean or complex carbs theories or high protein...I have read many and i have found good reasons to believe many of their arguments. But none of these books has hit me as hard as Gary Taubes's Good Calories, Bad Calories.
I would encourage any of you who have doubts about high protein diets to read this book with an open mind. It is an eye opener.

[allibear]

laugh:

Alli-
That may be one of the finest double entendre of all time.laugh:laugh:

Rob

I chickened out last minute on highlighting the word 'Mouthful' :lol:

[man_from_mars]

jees Ali - a finely tuned double entendre that good - I'm impressed!

[boyandhisdog]

I am very impressed as well.

That was hilarious!laugh:

I think I speak for Al and myself when I say...


We're not worthy, we're not worthy, we're not worthy...

Rob

[allibear]

Never underestimate the devilish powers of a red faced Irish woman taz:...

...and that was without a drop of the old red vino in me.. Just as well I can't drink it anymore laugh:

[boyandhisdog]

Please, regale Al and I with bawdy stories of your mispent red wine influenced Irish youth. Please!

[allibear]

Please, regale Al and I with bawdy stories of your mispent red wine influenced Irish youth. Please!

Ahhhhh, the mispent youth;

The days when gobbling the protein portion didn't matter and bigger was always thought to be better, more filling, when really small turned out to be just as satisfying and less taxing to digest. (especially for Rob )
The days when I thought Omega 3 was yet another failed NASA Launch. (especially for Al)
The days before the carb. wars star wars: and the torn forces of 'good and evil' in the local sandwich deli.
The days when I could never foresee my beloved Shiraz becoming public enemy no.1Cry:
The days when he walked in the room and my sudden blissful crimson face was misconstrued as a symbol of my purity and innocence:---)

Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la... =D>
Mary Hopkins

http://www.lyricsmode.com/lyrics/m/mary_hopkins/those_were_the_days.html

PS. The really BAWDY stories have got to be EARNED!

[Melissa W]

Quote:
Those were the days my friend
We thought they'd never end
We'd sing and dance forever and a day
We'd live the life we choose
We'd fight and never lose
For we were young and sure to have our way.
La la la la... =D>



LOL Alli, I love this song. It is a great tavern song when you are drunk beyond belief grin: Poignant like the Piano Man

[allibear]

LOL Alli, I love this song. It is a great tavern song when you are drunk beyond belief grin: Poignant like the Piano Man

Mellisa it really amazes me that you post on the forum with such sense and sensibility because I am convinced that between your Martini's, Scotch and the Piano Man you must spend your life drunk! Drunk2:laugh:laugh:

[Melissa W]

laugh: ah, the good old days



Open invitation anytime Alli grin:

[Melissa W]

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20090401/how-the-atkins-diet-fares-in-cholesterol?ecd=wnl_wlw_041109


April 1, 2009 -- People who follow a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet for weight maintenance, even for as little as a month, may worsen risk factors for heart disease compared to two other popular diets, a newly published study shows.

Earlier this year, a widely reported study found that for weight loss, restricting calories is the key and that it matters little whether you count carbs, fat, or protein.

But the newly published research suggests that there are big differences in the diets in terms of effects on cardiovascular risk factors when followed by people who aren’t losing weight.

After a month on the Atkins-like diet, study participants showed less blood vessel flexibility than they did after a month on the Ornish diet.

The study appears in the April issue of the Journal of the American Dietetic Association

[Brady Barrows]

Melissa,

One other good attribute you possess is tenacity and a stick to it attitude for your beliefs.

For just about every study you come up with that lambasts and browbeats low carbohydrate diets there are other clinical studies and reports contradicting the reports you come up with. I love this one I just found:

"Conclusion: This study determined that a 28 day LCD high in RM or PFS promotes a similar significant degree of weight loss. In spite of orthodox concerns about the impact of dietary cholesterol and saturated fat, no significant deleterious changes were observed to result from adherence to either the RM or PFS diets, which were both high in total cholesterol and total fat. This study suggests that dire predictions about LCD effects are anachronistic." Source:

Effects of low carbohydrate diets high in red meats or poultry, fish and shellfish on plasma lipids and weight loss
Bridget A Cassady, Nicole L Charboneau, Emily E Brys, Kristin A Crouse, Donald C Beitz, and Ted Wilson
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2007; 4: 23. Published online 2007 October 31. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-4-23.
PMCID: PMC2174488

One study said that VERY LOW CARBOHYDRATE diets 'resulted in equal improvements in most cardiovascular risk factors compared to conventional weight loss diets." Source:

Comparison of isocaloric very low carbohydrate/high saturated fat and high carbohydrate/low saturated fat diets on body composition and cardiovascular risk
Manny Noakes, Paul R Foster, Jennifer B Keogh, Anthony P James, John C Mamo, and Peter M Clifton
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006; 3: 7. Published online 2006 January 11. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-3-7.
PMCID: PMC1368980

"Conclusion: Under isocaloric conditions VLCARB results in similar fat loss to other conventional dietary patterns although the greater percent weight loss is suggestive of a metabolic advantage. VLCARB resulted in equal improvements in most cardiovascular risk factors compared to conventional weight loss diets while the triacylglycerol reduction offset the LDL cholesterol rise. The more favorable effects of VLCARB on fasting and post prandial plasma insulin concentrations is a significant observation which indicates that this dietary pattern may be a useful strategy for the short-term management of subjects with insulin resistance and hypertriacylglycerolemia."

I just searched 'low carbohydrate diet' at pubmed and found these reports that show the benefits of LCD. Of course, I ignored the contradictory reports just like you ignore the ones I have listed here.

Low-carbohydrate diet in type 2 diabetes: stable improvement of bodyweight and glycemic control during 44 months follow-up
Jörgen V Nielsen and Eva A Joensson
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008; 5: 14. Published online 2008 May 22. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-5-14.
PMCID: PMC2424054

A low-carbohydrate diet may prevent end-stage renal failure in type 2 diabetes. A case report
Jørgen Vesti Nielsen, Per Westerlund, and Per Bygren
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006; 3: 23. Published online 2006 June 14. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-3-23.
PMCID: PMC1523335

Low-carbohydrate diet in type 2 diabetes. Stable improvement of bodyweight and glycemic control during 22 months follow-up
Jørgen Vesti Nielsen and Eva Joensson
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2006; 3: 22. Published online 2006 June 14. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-3-22.
PMCID: PMC1526736

The case for low carbohydrate diets in diabetes management
Surender K Arora and Samy I McFarlane
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2005; 2: 16. Published online 2005 July 14. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-2-16.
PMCID: PMC1188071

The case for not restricting saturated fat on a low carbohydrate diet
Jeff S Volek and Cassandra E Forsythe
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2005; 2: 21. Published online 2005 August 31. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-2-21.
PMCID: PMC1208952

Comparison of a low carbohydrate and low fat diet for weight maintenance in overweight or obese adults enrolled in a clinical weight management program
James D LeCheminant, Cheryl A Gibson, Debra K Sullivan, Sandra Hall, Rik Washburn, Mary C Vernon, Chelsea Curry, Elizabeth Stewart, Eric C Westman, and Joseph E Donnelly
Nutr J. 2007; 6: 36. Published online 2007 November 1. doi: 10.1186/1475-2891-6-36.
PMCID: PMC2228297

Dietary carbohydrate restriction in type 2 diabetes mellitus and metabolic syndrome: time for a critical appraisal
Anthony Accurso, Richard K Bernstein, Annika Dahlqvist, Boris Draznin, Richard D Feinman, Eugene J Fine, Amy Gleed, David B Jacobs, Gabriel Larson, Robert H Lustig, Anssi H Manninen, Samy I McFarlane, Katharine Morrison, Jørgen Vesti Nielsen, Uffe Ravnskov, Karl S Roth, Ricardo Silvestre, James R Sowers, Ralf Sundberg, Jeff S Volek, Eric C Westman, Richard J Wood, Jay Wortman, and Mary C Vernon
Nutr Metab (Lond). 2008; 5: 9. Published online 2008 April 8. doi: 10.1186/1743-7075-5-9.
PMCID: PMC2359752

Low carbohydrate diet is vindicated
Janice Hopkins Tanne
BMJ. 2003 May 31; 326(7400): 1166.
PMCID: PMC1174775

I would go on with this but I thought ten reports are enough for this demonstration purposes.

The above search was the first page on pubmed with 20 results. Here is the url for the seach:

http://tinyurl.com/dczseg

I picked from the 20 the 10 that gave some good marks for LCD. The other side of the coin is that just like in rosacea, everyone is different. Some people simply do not feel healthy eating low carbohydrate and others simply don't feel healthy eating high carbohydrate. It depends on each individual's metabolism. Sort of the 'X-factor' we discuss with rosacea treatments, the same can be said of diet. What works for one, may not work for the other. One should experiment and see which diet works better for overall health. But with rosacea, the main thing about the Rosacea Diet (which is what this entire thread is supposed to be about) is cut out sugar and reduce the carbs and many report that their rosacea improves. Doesn't cure it, but nevertheless, a significant number of rosaceans report that rosacea does indeed improve.

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20090401/how-the-atkins-diet-fares-in-cholesterol?ecd=wnl_wlw_041109

[man_from_mars]

Melissa,

One other good attribute you possess is tenacity and a stick to it attitude for your beliefs.




That's why Melissa is the best yes:

Ofcourse I'll never agree with her either, concerning a low carb diet
it's the long term benefits that count the most

[Melissa W]

Thanks guys smile:

Regarding long term effects Al is exactly what I am concerned about for you guys. Long term effects of high protein/low carb can be deleterious to our health. I want everyone here to be as healthy as possible and that is the only reason I posted on this topic from the start of this thread. Of course I do not expect to change anyone's mind but can only present the facts as I see them.

Happy Passover and Easter everyone hi:

Melissa

[Melissa W]

But with rosacea, the main thing about the Rosacea Diet (which is what this entire thread is supposed to be about) is cut out sugar and reduce the carbs and many report that their rosacea improves. Doesn't cure it, but nevertheless, a significant number of rosaceans report that rosacea does indeed improve.


btw, no arguments here at all.
I agree that cutting down on simple sugars, refined carbs etc is good for you to do yes: I am just saying we do need complex carbs in our diet for our overall health but I am in agreement with you regarding that fact smile:

and this thread is about eating healthfully for rosacea so we are on topic here Brady.

[allibear]

In desperate fear of ever letting this thread dyelaugh:laugh:laugh:

Just watch out for your breath whilst trying to get rid of the red face with diet. Hard to know which infliction would be the most damaging socially grin:

http://fitnessblackbook.com/muscle-building/is-too-much-protein-unhealthy-and-bad-for-your-kidneys/

High Protein and Low Carbs Are a Great Combination for Bad Breath!

If you eat a well balanced diet with both carbs and protein, then this won't apply to you…but if you eat high protein while keeping the carbs extremely low, then some nasty things do happen. First of all, you are very likely to have bad breath…really bad from what I understand. One study I read explained it very well…"When fatty acids are the primary source of energy and carbohydrate is severely restricted, part of the fat particle cannot be metabolized and builds up in the fluids outside the cells. These particles are converted to ketones (an “emergencyâ€� energy source), and unused ketones are excreted in the urine and expired air, resulting in acetone-smelling breath." Due to the lack of fiber found in carbs, this type of dieting causes constipation as well!

[Melissa W]

http://www.fitnessblackbook.com/wp-photos/Camel%20Breath.jpg

Someone needs a good brushing grin:

[Brady Barrows]

In desperate fear of ever letting this thread dyelaugh:laugh:laugh:

Just watch out for your breath whilst trying to get rid of the red face with diet. Hard to know which infliction would be the most damaging socially grin:

http://fitnessblackbook.com/muscle-building/is-too-much-protein-unhealthy-and-bad-for-your-kidneys/

I found these links helpful:

Bad Breath: The Truth (http://www.therabreath.com/art_badbreath.asp)

The Truth About Curing Bad Breath From a High Protein Diet Revealed (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Truth-About-Curing-Bad-Breath-From-a-High-Protein-Diet-Revealed&id=1606303)

Do Low-Carb Diets Cause Bad Breath? (http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/id/QAA350160)

You Can Cure Bad Breath From A High Protein Diet (http://www.badbreath-halitosis.com/bad-breath-cures/you-can-cure-bad-breath-from-a-high-protein-diet)

[Melissa W]

Thanks Brady.

Here is another study that just confirms the link b/w heart health and the mediterranean diet.

http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/701736?src=cmemp

[man_from_mars]

Thanks Brady.

Here is another study that just confirms the link b/w heart health and the mediterranean diet.

http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/701736?src=cmemp

I guess someone should tell the Mediterraneans then laugh:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/24/world/europe/24diet.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

for longevity we know who wins out...YouTube - Geico Cavemen Apology.

[allibear]

LOL. Brady and Mellissa never cease to put a smile on my face in this thread and by god I need a smile these days.

I remember a long time ago a friend of mine did the Atkins diet, (she was a big girl), and came off it because of a 'bad taste' in her mouth all the time and I thought she was joking and was just using it as an excuse to pack it in.

I personlly like the mediterranean style diet as well, the authentic type not the fast food one for the tourists laugh:

I'm currenently on the toast, potato, soup and banana diet, (Is there a name for this one lol), if I discover any great benefits for the skin and overall health, which I gravely doubtno:, I will reportgrin:

[Melissa W]

Hey Alli sidehug:
I hope you are doing well.

Glad Brady and I are entertaining you grin:
anytime for you girl yes:

hi:
Melissa

[Brady Barrows]

LOL. Brady and Mellissa never cease to put a smile on my face in this thread and by god I need a smile these days.
grin:

[Brady Barrows]

Thanks Brady.

Here is another study that just confirms the link b/w heart health and the mediterranean diet.

http://cme.medscape.com/viewarticle/701736?src=cmemp

What the Hunter/Gatherers Ate (http://www.paleodiet.com/)

[allibear]

What the Hunter/Gatherers Ate (http://www.paleodiet.com/)

Ok there's enough in that link to chew on for a while.

Thought this was hilarious, can't beleive people actually go to the extent of experimenting with these things but had me thinking that maybe it's not what we eat or even the way we cook but maybe it's just the utensils we use to cook with LOLlaugh:

http://www.wynja.com/arch/cooking.html

[allibear]

Hey Alli sidehug:
I hope you are doing well.


Doing slightly better progress with unpainful food is sloooow. I'm doing shopping and throwing more food in the bin at the moment than I ever did with skincare.shock: Anyone ever had heartburn from eating an apple? I have LOL. I'll bet these cavemen where really rolling around on the ground with a lot of stomach cramp all the time, it's just the story that time forgotlaugh:

Oh and guess what the heartburn brings on, big red face, woohoo!

[Melissa W]

Hey Alli hi:
Thinking of you.

btw a new study came out and thought it might be of interest to some

http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20090623/mediterranean-diet-may-boost-longevity?ecd=wnl_day_062409

[MissD]

Hey Alli hi:
Thinking of you.

btw a new study came out and thought it might be of interest to some

http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20090623/mediterranean-diet-may-boost-longevity?ecd=wnl_day_062409

That's not exactly new information but it's interesting nonetheless. I've been eating a Mediterranean diet (minus the wine - grapes suffice!) even before I knew what it was. laugh:

edit - this article goes into slightly more detail http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090624093353.htm

[Melissa W]

Ditto yes:
eating this way before I knew it was called the Mediterranean diet (minus the wine but with the grapes wink1:)

but the new part is this:
A new study finds that certain aspects of the diet -- such as high consumption of vegetables and olive oil, low consumption of meat, and moderate consumption of alcohol -- may be more strongly linked to longevity.
Contributors, in order of importance, were: moderate alcohol consumption, low consumption of meat and meat products, high vegetable consumption, high fruit and nut consumption, high monounsaturated to saturated fat ratio, and high legume consumption.

[BingoBangoBongo]

Rosacea diets don't work.


I had cut out on everything that I can remember made it trigger and what the doctor said to.

Red meat, milk, grain. fatty, sugary crap.

At the end of the day, I was basically eating fruit, and chicken and that's it.

I did this for nearly two months and noticed no improvement.


Don't waste your time with it. I mean if all these diets, and crappy creams and medications actually worked depending on your case and who you are, the laser treatment business wouldn't even exist.

[MissD]

Rosacea diets don't work.


I had cut out on everything that I can remember made it trigger and what the doctor said to.

Red meat, milk, grain. fatty, sugary crap.

At the end of the day, I was basically eating fruit, and chicken and that's it.

I did this for nearly two months and noticed no improvement.


Don't waste your time with it. I mean if all these diets, and crappy creams and medications actually worked depending on your case and who you are, the laser treatment business wouldn't even exist.

Welcome to the forums fellow sane person! hi:

[Melissa W]

Some people have food triggers and obviously if they don't limit those or avoid those food triggers their rosacea will be exacerbated.

Of course we should all eat well for overall health and that would mean limiting certain things such as sugar, red meat, etc. That is a personal choice. And in moderation anything is OK unless you have a specific food trigger or allergy and in that case avoiding those foods will most definitely be beneficial.

[Brady Barrows]

Some people have food triggers and obviously if they don't limit those or avoid those food triggers their rosacea will be exacerbated.

Of course we should all eat well for overall health and that would mean limiting certain things such as sugar, red meat, etc. That is a personal choice. And in moderation anything is OK unless you have a specific food trigger or allergy and in that case avoiding those foods will most definitely be beneficial.

Aloha Melissa,

I understand and agree with you about eating a balanced diet in moderation is good for overall health. Exercise should also be included in such a recommendation. But I think it is important to clear up this thread, pun intended.

I have never seen any 'official' rosacea trigger list mention red meat. The 'official' NRS Trigger List (http://www.rosacea.org/patients/materials/triggers.php) mentions liver but not red meat. Just wanted to clear up any confusion about red meat being a rosacea trigger. The 'official' list still doesn't mention sugar or a high carbohydrate as a trigger either, but one day it will since the evidence for all the triggers the NRS lists are simply anecdotal reports and there is now anecdotal evidence that sugar and a high carbohydrate diet is a rosacea trigger for some. Eventually the NRS will come around to including it on their 'official list.' Mentioning red meat in this thread called the 'rosacea diet' seems to implicate red meat as a rosacea trigger which simply hasn't been discussed either in this thread and rarely in any other. Sugar and a high carbohydrate diet has been discussed in this thread and in many others as a rosacea trigger.

[Melissa W]

Aloha Brady,
How is the weather there for you in Hawaii? What an amazing place to live in and I hope one day I can visit your beautiful hometown.

Regarding the red meat issue I was discussing overall health in general. As far as rosacea triggers go I feel the only 2 almost universal triggers are spicy foods and alcohol. Everything else is up for grabs IMO. I (and many others here) can eat a moderate complex carb diet with no issues whatsoever and in fact for best health you know I believe that the Mediterranean way of eating is best for overall health.

I am happy to hear all viewpoints as usual and enjoy all discussions debating this issue. However I will not go into all the reasons I believe the above to be true as I have stated them (ad nauseum to many I am sure LOL) before and I guess we will just agree to disagree. Fine by me yes:

Enjoy the rest of your summer and aloha hi:

Melissa

[GJ]

laugh:laugh:

A quick test of the assertion that enjoyment outweighs pain in this world...would be to compare the feelings of an animal engaged in eating another with those of the animal being eaten.

Schopenhauer



Broccoli, parsnips, salmon.

[Melissa W]

yes:

and then there's the famous quote by Ghandi which is so true-

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated

[Brady Barrows]

“An onion can make people cry but there's never been a vegetable that can make people laugh.” - Will Rogers

[Brady Barrows]

Aloha Brady,
How is the weather there for you in Hawaii? What an amazing place to live in and I hope one day I can visit your beautiful hometown.
Enjoy the rest of your summer and aloha hi:

Melissa

The weather here is usually in the 80s winter or summer. Rarely does it get into the 90s and it hardly ever goes over 100. So if you do visit I am sure you would not be disappointed.

[Melissa W]

“An onion can make people cry but there's never been a vegetable that can make people laugh.” - Will Rogers




this one carrot: is pretty funny IMO

grin:

[Melissa W]

The weather here is usually in the 80s winter or summer. Rarely does it get into the 90s and it hardly ever goes over 100. So if you do visit I am sure you would not be disappointed.

Sounds amazing.
In NYC today it is going to feel like 90 with almost 100 percent humidity so that sounds like heaven!

[GJ]

“An onion can make people cry but there's never been a vegetable that can make people laugh.” - Will Rogers

A risible opinion. Clearly, Rogers never got to watch the great, British, facto-entertainment TV show That's Life.

[rosabolic]

- i also weight train; so according to rosacea diet im i doing good? i really believe diet helps a lot! but i dont know if im doing it correctly :( i have the rosacea book but i dont get the diet part that good.
thank you guys

morning:
egg whites, cup of oatmeal, grape fruit

mid:
whey protein shaker, cup of oatmeal

meal:
1 cup brown rice or brown pasta, chicken breast, vegetables

mid:
whey protein shake

dinner:
chicken breast/ turkey breast, vegetables

before bed:
whey protein shake

IM I DOING OK?

[ntec]

Hi Rosabolic,
I also weight train so know how important whey protein is BUT after having an allergy test done (http://www.imupro.com/) I discovered I have a level 2 allergy to dairy. This means I have to avoid ALL dairy for 12 weeks and after that still limit my dairy. So I've replaced whey with Soy & Rice protein (alternating so as not to create a new allergy). I'm only 3 weeks into my none diairy program, after 12 weeks I think I might try taking whey once per week and see how it goes re skin and take Soy & Rice protein the rest of the time (after workouts).

Now the interesting thing I've discovered is that dairy is a BIG contributor to acne & skin problems according to "The Clean Skin Diet" book (big thanks to Melissa.. I love your posts & always pay extra attention to them thumbsup:). I'm only about 1/3 thru this book but it's back by some solid science & studies so I'm paying careful attention to its recommendations. Also its recommendations seem to coincide with my own experience ie although my skin has always been problematic it really started to get out of hand a few years ago... this coincides with my starting to drink whey protein after workouts. In view of this I might NOT resume whey at all if I see any reactions once I re-introduce it after my 12 weeks of non dairy.

In summary:

Read "The Clear Skin Diet" (ISBN 978-1-58182-574-9) - its a MUST for anyone with skin problems.
Get an allergy test done - out of the 291 foods tested I tested positive to dairy ONLY - this was NOT a waste of money since over the years I had stopped eating certain foods thinking they affected my skin. This is what alot of people do since type 2 food reactions take a few days to appear after consuming the offending food... people then often make wrong cause\affect connections then start eliminating the wrong foods making their food regimes overly restrictive and difficult to maintain.
Try swapping from whey to alternating between soy & rice protein (so as not to create a new allergy). They can be bland so get a NON dairy flavouring - be careful as most have dairy additives - I use Nestles Nesquik chocolate (careful since their "fitness" type version has dairy additives) Actually now that I've adjusted to the taste I don't often add the flavouring and after all sacrificing flavour for skin health is something I'm more than happy to do.


BIG Thanks to forum members:
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone on this forum. I have benefited so much from all your input, ideas and positivity - I can't thank you all enough hi:.

[Brady Barrows]

A risible opinion. Clearly, Rogers never got to watch the great, British, facto-entertainment TV show That's Life.

Will Rogers died in 1935. There is quite a lot of info on That's Life according to Wikipedia
and concerning the British TV series it says, "That's Life! was a magazine-style television series on BBC between 1973 and 1994, presented by Esther Rantzen throughout the entire run, with various changes of co-presenters." Maybe Rogers would have got a kick out of it and I am sure he would have an opinion.

[Brady Barrows]

- i also weight train; so according to rosacea diet im i doing good? i really believe diet helps a lot! but i dont know if im doing it correctly :( i have the rosacea book but i dont get the diet part that good.
thank you guys

morning:
egg whites, cup of oatmeal, grape fruit

mid:
whey protein shaker, cup of oatmeal

meal:
1 cup brown rice or brown pasta, chicken breast, vegetables

mid:
whey protein shake

dinner:
chicken breast/ turkey breast, vegetables

before bed:
whey protein shake

IM I DOING OK?

You are a bit high on carbohydrate based upon what I know about the RD. Which book do you have and who is the author? The important question is how is your rosacea after altering your current diet with what you have done?

[grumpy]

Now the interesting thing I've discovered is that dairy is a BIG contributor to acne & skin problems according to "The Clean Skin Diet" book

Wow. I noticed the same thing. After reading what Claudia(thank you!) said on the forum in an older post about dairy, I started to track my reaction to dairy and I noticed that it really makes my pustules a lot worse. If I have dairy, in a day or two, my pustules count doubles(or worse!) and I also get constipation which lasts for 2-3 days. After that, the breakouts calm down.

[Melissa W]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090812/hl_hsn/mediterraneandietplusexerciselowersalzheimersrisk

[Brady Barrows]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20090812/hl_hsn/mediterraneandietplusexerciselowersalzheimersrisk

The AMA says:

"There's no one "Mediterranean" diet. At least 16 countries border the Mediterranean Sea. Diets vary between these countries and also between regions within a country." The article does go on to explain what 'characteristics' "the common Mediterranean dietary pattern has" at this link. (http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4644)

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_diet) says "Total fat in this diet is 25% to 35% of calories, with saturated fat at 8% or less of calories."

According to this source (http://www.oldwayspt.org/med_pyramid.html) the Mediterranean Diet Pyramid shows carbohydrate to be the larger portion while protein is less. This diet certainly would be better for rosaceans than the typical American diet since the carbohydrate encouraged are fruits, vegetables, grains, and dairy.

[Mistica]

I thought the following link might be of interest regarding the protein, carbohydrate debate.

http://www.goodnesssuperfoods.com.au/

"High protein, low fibre diets may help you lose weight in the short term, but unless you include enough fibre, particularly resistant starch, you risk damaging your bowel" Dr David Topping, Chief Research Scientist, CSIRO Food Futures Flagship.

Not quite on topic, still, seeing the article is about inflammatory bowel disease and bacteria, which are often connected with rosacea, I thought it was worth sharing.

[Brady Barrows]

I thought the following link might be of interest regarding the protein, carbohydrate debate.

http://www.goodnesssuperfoods.com.au/



Not quite on topic, still, seeing the article is about inflammatory bowel disease and bacteria, which are often connected with rosacea, I thought it was worth sharing.

I doubt if you could ever find anyone putting down fiber. "Dietary fiber (fibre), sometimes called roughage, is the indigestible portion of plant foods that pushes food through the digestive system, absorbing water and easing defecation." Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_fiber)

Technically fiber is a carbohydrate but humans can't digest dietary fiber as cows, for an example, are able, so it is not a source of energy for humans. Most people who are on low carbohydrate diet subtract the fiber content of any carbohydrate because of this. Yes, fiber is essential, yet how much one should consume as a human requirement is not set but everyone agrees it is essential. Eat your dietary fiber. It will no doubt help your rosacea, helping to eliminate any toxins in your system.

[allibear]

Well I have nearly died, or thought I was dying, had a nervous breakdown, been off work for four months now, still awaiting medical attention on NHS, oh it's all such a long storyCry: and can't believe I pull myself finally from bed to have a tune in and This Thread is first on the list and the debate is still thriving LOL.

I am virtually living now on carbohydrates, (cereals, breads), and processed foods such as quiches, (they go down easy), anything too challenging on my digestive system, (like high protein food, fresh fibrous vegetables etc.), turns me into a 'charlie horse.'

Oh by the way through all this disaster with my health and not what I am viewing as the healthiest diet in the world, and taking antacids etc. my skin is the one thing that is doing rather well. In fact I am sick of people saying how well I look when I feel like sh*t.

BTW. Mellissa you look fab in your new avatar pic!

[Brady Barrows]

Well I have nearly died, or thought I was dying, had a nervous breakdown, been off work for four months now, still awaiting medical attention on NHS, oh it's all such a long storyCry: and can't believe I pull myself finally from bed to have a tune in and This Thread is first on the list and the debate is still thriving LOL.

I am virtually living now on carbohydrates, (cereals, breads), and processed foods such as quiches, (they go down easy), anything too challenging on my digestive system, (like high protein food, fresh fibrous vegetables etc.), turns me into a 'charlie horse.'

Oh by the way through all this disaster with my health and not what I am viewing as the healthiest diet in the world, and taking antacids etc. my skin is the one thing that is doing rather well. In fact I am sick of people saying how well I look when I feel like sh*t.

BTW. Mellissa you look fab in your new avatar pic!

Allibear,
Sorry to hear about your problems, but as least you skin is doing better. What are you doing for your rosacea?
Actually I would say this thread has been very polite and especially for the last few pages the 'debate' is rather calm at this point. The thing about discussing rosacea, no matter what internet social group you join in with, the topic ALWAYS turns to diet and rosacea. Always. And when anyone suggests that one should eat this or that for rosacea, the debate starts. That is because it is an unspoken and unwritten universal right that every person has the right to eat and drink whatever one wants. As soon as any 'authority' or even one who would dare to suggest a diet for rosacea speaks out debate begins. I doubt if you or anyone could find a rosacea group on the internet that will not allow the subject of diet and rosacea. It you formed one, I think that there would be a few who would break the rule of not speaking about this subject. It is a deeply embedded rosacea subject.

And it is wonderful for you to be able to eat all those carbohydrates and have a clear face. Congratulations. I envy you.

[Melissa W]

Dear Alli,

I am so sad you have been through so much and continue to go through so much console: I hope that the next 4 months are much better for you than the last 4 months.
I hope you have some good doctors on your side helping you get to the bottom of all this and that your good health will be restored soon!

Big hugs and healing vibes being sent your way sidehug:

Melissa

[allibear]

@Brady: Well at the moment I'm not doing anything for it. To be honest it has fallen way down on my list of ailments to be overly concerned about over the past few months. I had a breakout not long after the surgery but it didn't last too long and it was a bit hypersensititive but all has calmed down again. I'm religous about my skincare regimen and products and that's about it.

As well as diet being a big topic that comes up time and time again so does the issue that many of us have underlying health problems and digestive isssues. My digestion just seems to handle 'easy' to digest and go down easily foods at the moment, probably why they feed you processed slop in hospitals laugh: I don't know whether being on a PPI is a contributing factor at the moment, as again there is the big controversy over too much, too little stomach acid and it's influence on Rosacea. Some have said antacids have helped some say it makes things worse. I know it's just necessary for me to take it at the moment because the acid coming up was starting to give me a sore throat but who knows if it is helping contributing to the calmness of the face or not.

Don't think I'm up to having a whiskey with you yet though, poor liver's been struggling enough.

@ Missie, LOL what's a good doc then? I think I am definately in the wrong country for one of those. I'm just trying to get rid of the gravel left behing in the ducts as far as I can see that is the only thing that is causing all this pain and when that goes I can finally feel normal, (I hope). Problem is it just seems to be on a constant 'drip', it's a one way street as far as I'm concerned so has to pass eventually, there where just a few wee stones stuck that prevented it from moving out more quickly in the first place. It was totally pointless taking out the gallbladder and not clearing the ducts as far as I can see. I was told small stones and sludge would just clear itself but 5 months down the line and still suffering is a bit ridiculous not to mention the time I have lost from work.

But don't worry as soon as things get back to normal I'm on a flight to the States for one of your fancy cocktails Drunk2:

[Melissa W]

Missie, LOL what's a good doc then? I think I am definately in the wrong country for one of those. I'm just trying to get rid of the gravel left behing in the ducts as far as I can see that is the only thing that is causing all this pain and when that goes I can finally feel normal, (I hope). Problem is it just seems to be on a constant 'drip', it's a one way street as far as I'm concerned so has to pass eventually, there where just a few wee stones stuck that prevented it from moving out more quickly in the first place. It was totally pointless taking out the gallbladder and not clearing the ducts as far as I can see. I was told small stones and sludge would just clear itself but 5 months down the line and still suffering is a bit ridiculous not to mention the time I have lost from work.

But don't worry as soon as things get back to normal I'm on a flight to the States for one of your fancy cocktails Drunk2:

Alli,

Tell you what. Come on over to the states and I will go with you to find a good doctor!! I will do my very best and at the very least we will have fun searching yes:

Missy

[Brady Barrows]

@Brady: Well at the moment I'm not doing anything for it. To be honest it has fallen way down on my list of ailments to be overly concerned about over the past few months. I had a breakout not long after the surgery but it didn't last too long and it was a bit hypersensititive but all has calmed down again. I'm religous about my skincare regimen and products and that's about it.

As well as diet being a big topic that comes up time and time again so does the issue that many of us have underlying health problems and digestive isssues. My digestion just seems to handle 'easy' to digest and go down easily foods at the moment, probably why they feed you processed slop in hospitals laugh: I don't know whether being on a PPI is a contributing factor at the moment, as again there is the big controversy over too much, too little stomach acid and it's influence on Rosacea. Some have said antacids have helped some say it makes things worse. I know it's just necessary for me to take it at the moment because the acid coming up was starting to give me a sore throat but who knows if it is helping contributing to the calmness of the face or not.

Don't think I'm up to having a whiskey with you yet though, poor liver's been struggling enough.
Drunk2:

I can understand your concerns for these other health problems you are dealing with and hope you can find some relief somehow.

[allibear]

Thanks Brady and Mellissahi:

It's getting better everyday but by god I am sick of pink grapefruits and lemons now.
I'll soon be on that flight to the states LOL. I am also starting to regain some weight, must be all the carbs. I'm eatinglaugh: I dropped even more after the surgery and really did start to look like a skeleton, not nice at all.

[skwpt]

I don't want to start a diet flame war, but I see nothing wrong with a ketogenic diet, which is generally agreed to be 100g or less of carb. 100 grams of gross carbohydrate intake is a LOT if you're choosing high water-content veggies over bagels.

My diet is more or less isocaloric. I eat 8 ounces of animal protein a day (or under 100g, which is certainly not excessive and supports hormone metabolism) and approximately 75g (net) of carbohydrate, which translates to around 30g of fiber and just over two pounds of above-ground veggies and another half pound a day of fruit. I eat butter, homemade lard, coconut and palm oil, and my serum results are perfect. I do not eat fatty meats because of the oxidation/free-radical issue, but I certainly eat saturated fat, as do most people who eat traditional diets.

If you believe in Evolution, then you must know that ketosis is our natural state.

That said, if you don't have hormonal imbalances, such as insulin resistance, and you don't have gluten sensitivities, there's no reason to avoid all cereal grains; however, of the three macronutrients, carbohydrate is the ONLY one that is nonessential. We cannot live without protein and fat. We can live without carb of any kind; life just isn't as colorful or tasty.

[skwpt]

OK, I shut up now. I didn't realize this thread was 16 pages and had changed topic somewhat.

[MissD]

That said, if you don't have hormonal imbalances, such as insulin resistance, and you don't have gluten sensitivities, there's no reason to avoid all cereal grains; however, of the three macronutrients, carbohydrate is the ONLY one that is nonessential. We cannot live without protein and fat. We can live without carb of any kind; life just isn't as colorful or tasty.

Carbohydrates actually are essential for a healthy diet. They're found in fruit and vegetables too, but cereals have all sorts of additional nutrients and benefits that there's not really any reason to avoid them. Also, not all cereals have gluten.

[Seamonster]

Hey. I just wanted to say that I have been experimenting with a gluten-free diet in the last few days and I have shed a lot of redness. I don't know if it's the diet - it's only been a few days, as I said -, but I haven't changed anything else in my regime and the change is clear. I know well things may get worse again in a heart-beat, but so far so good. Also, just for comparison, the same did not happen when I tried to go low carb. The gluten-free diet - assuming it works for you - is also A LOT easier to follow than the low carb diet, or at least it is for me (I don't eat meat, for example).

[Melissa W]

Hey. I just wanted to say that I have been experimenting with a gluten-free diet in the last few days and I have shed a lot of redness. I don't know if it's the diet - it's only been a few days, as I said -, but I haven't changed anything else in my regime and the change is clear. I know well things may get worse again in a heart-beat, but so far so good. Also, just for comparison, the same did not happen when I tried to go low carb. The gluten-free diet - assuming it works for you - is also A LOT easier to follow than the low carb diet, or at least it is for me (I don't eat meat, for example).

Hi Seamonster,

That's wonderful that this gluten-free diet has been helpful to you.
Have you ever been tested for celiac disease or gluten intolerance? It might be a factor in your symptoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten_intolerance

Best wishes,
Melissa

[skwpt]

Carbohydrates actually are essential for a healthy diet. They're found in fruit and vegetables too, but cereals have all sorts of additional nutrients and benefits that there's not really any reason to avoid them. Also, not all cereals have gluten.

MissD, Carbohydrates are nonessential. Look at the Eskimos. Our bodies can survive without purposely consuming a single carbohydrate, and our brains are very adept at burning ketone bodies. It's how we evolved, though our ancestors ate the entire animal, not just muscle meat.

That said, life without all carbohydrates is certainly less colorful. They add add variety, fiber, water, and nutrients, but they are not essential.

I am on a gluten-free diet, so I am aware, but many cereals are fortified and contain niacin, so they can cause a flush. Also, after reading about how cereal is made, I won't touch the stuff. (Can you say "slurry"?)

[Melissa W]

MissD, Carbohydrates are nonessential. Look at the Eskimos. Our bodies can survive without purposely consuming a single carbohydrate, and our brains are very adept at burning ketone bodies. It's how we evolved, though our ancestors ate the entire animal, not just muscle meat.

That said, life without all carbohydrates is certainly less colorful. They add add variety, fiber, water, and nutrients, but they are not essential.

I am on a gluten-free diet, so I am aware, but many cereals are fortified and contain niacin, so they can cause a flush. Also, after reading about how cereal is made, I won't touch the stuff. (Can you say "slurry"?)

Hi skwpt.
I respectfully disagree with your statement and believe that carbs are an essential part of any healthy diet. I am not trying to change your mind but just wanted to share my point of view.

http://www.ehow.com/about_4648571_why-carbohydrates-important-organisms.html?ref=fuel&utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=ssp&utm_campaign=yssp_art

Carbohydrates are important because they serve as the principal source of fuel for the body, and the preferred source of fuel by the body. To be more specific, it's really the glucose derived from carbohydrates that the body would rather use as its fuel on a day to day basis.

The glucose derived from carbohydrates is used to essentially get you from one place to another. It's like the gas in your car. Without it, your vehicle wouldn't move, or at least would come to a sputtering halt once the fumes were completely gone. That's what would happen to you if you were to deprive your body of carbohydrates all together. You would begin to get sluggish, tired and stop performing as you should. Anyone on a protein-based diet can attest to the change in their energy; they just don't have the same amount as people eating a diet rich in carbohydrates -complex carbohydrates to be specific.

Besides fueling your muscles, carbohydrates are also important in allowing your organs to properly function. This would also include one of the most important organs in your body -- the brain.
Best wishes,
Melissa

[MissD]

I also wanted to point out that one of the reasons we're here today is that civilizations from the past harvested grains for food. I understand that you're gluten intolerant Skwpt, but as I've said before there are gluten-free alternatives you could try such as quinoa, soy and even popcorn. As I understand it whole grains are okay, it's just whole wheat you need to look out for.

As for store-bought cereal, if you have a Whole Foods nearby or some other health food store they have many all-natural, gluten-free and non-fortified products which is what I mostly get or you could stick with making your own.

[Seamonster]

Have you ever been tested for celiac disease or gluten intolerance? It might be a factor in your symptoms.


No, I haven't been tested for it. I am aware of gluten intolerance, hence, I have been experimenting with the gluten-free diet. We'll see how that goes.

[Brady Barrows]

Carbohydrates actually are essential for a healthy diet. They're found in fruit and vegetables too, but cereals have all sorts of additional nutrients and benefits that there's not really any reason to avoid them. Also, not all cereals have gluten.

MissD,

We have been through this already if you go back in this thread. What you are referring to is fruits and vegetables, grains and other food that contain mostly carbohydrate and nutrients such as vitamins and minerals essential to life which is true. Carbohydrate is simply carbon plus water and contain absolutely no nutrients essential for life, only fuel in the form of a sugar. Sugar has absolutely no essential nutrients for life. While we need sugar in the form of glucose to live, glucose can be obtained from fat and protein. If you were on the moon and had only two food groups to choose from the three and you chose fat and protein you survive, but if you choose carbohydrate and either other you would die because carbohydrate is not essential for survival. It is a gift that makes life enjoyable. Carbohydrate is usually accompanied in a wonder mixture of mineral, vitamins, fiber, and usually includes some fat and protein in the fruits, vegetables, and grains we choose to eat. But if you had a ton of sugar in drums on a desert island and plenty of water you would die eating sugar since it contains absolutely nothing in nutrients. Fat and protein are absolutely necessary for survival. Carbohydrate strictly speaking is not essential.

[Melissa W]

Brady wrote:
What you are referring to is fruits and vegetables, grains and other food that contain mostly carbohydrate and nutrients such as vitamins and minerals essential to life which is true.
yes:

The bottom line is that we need carbs. For energy and for our brains and nervous system to function.

IMOwink1:



(http://proteins-carb-fats.suite101.com/article.cfm/refined_vs_unrefined_carbohydrates)

[skwpt]

Where's the catfight icon?? laugh:

I should have left for work 15 minutes ago, but this is a topic I am passionate about. I am not trying to change your mind, either, Melissa, and you need to eat in a way that's comfortable for you. But I think you are misinformed.

Humans do not need carbohydrate to survive or thrive. I could truly pull up a gazillion studies (later, I am on deadline) that say so.

Grains, fruits, vegetables, table sugar, raw honey ... all carbohydrate. They are all nonessential, which is a scientific term, not my opinion. Nonessential means that the substance is required for normal functioning, but it does not need to be included in the diet because our bodies can synthesize the requirement from other nutrients.

That's science.

Now, as for what I believe:

Most everyone could benefit from eating a variety of above-ground, especially green leafy vegetables -- unless food sensitivities dictate otherwise (e.g., nightshade family). There's much nutrition available in veggies, and since few of us are hunting and eating the whole animal (brains, eyes, marrow, organs), we could benefit from consuming organic high-water content veggies.

Fruit is a decent source of nutrition, but people with blood sugar should seriously consider limiting it. It's tasty, but there are no nutritional qualities in fruit that you cannot get from veggies, which have a lower glycemic load and much less sugar. Also, the fruit we eat these days barely resembles the stuff our ancestors ate. It hardly even resembles the stuff I remember as a child, which was much smaller and much less sweet. Now even American apples are supersized.

No one needs -- and many of us should avoid -- cereal grains. Our ancestry is that of hunger gatherer. We've been eating animal protein, vegetables, leaves, tubers, shoots, roots, some nuts, and miniscule amounts of fruit for 50,000 years, and our DNA is 99% the same as our ancient forebears. Unless you're Mormon or born-again Christian, I think most evolutionists agree to that. Agriculture is only 8000 years old. That's a drop in the primal bucket compared to how long humans have been foraging for food. Unless our ancestry hails from the fertile crescent, we simply have not fully adapted to grains yet -- and absolutely not in the volumes recommend by that bloody food pyramid.

<rant> Since that thing was first published, Americans have gotten fatter and more sick, and that's while eating less fat. Guess what replaced the fat (from butter, oil, meat)? Carbs</rant>

A controlled, preferably no grain diet is the best way to manage my rosacea symptoms, as well as everyone I know in the 3D world who has it. My belief and experience has nothing to do with gluten intolerance, though that threw a nasty curve ball my way.

OK. I didn't mince words and there are probably a bunch of typos because I am in a rush. I truly don't mean to offend!

[MissD]

It's alright Skwpt, I'm just as passionate as you are about this! I don't want to be the reason you're late for work though =B

As Melissa mentioned, carbohydrates are the preferred energy source of the body, protein and fat less so. Your brain soley relies on carbs to function properly and without them you will get confused, dizzy and forgetful. Truly, you don't want to get to the point where your body starts burning protein for fuel. << speaking from evidence and personal experience.

Carbohydrates are not the reason why most Americans are obese these days, either. It's because they eat too much and exercise too little. If you consume more calories than you burn you gain weight.

I see that you accept evolution which is great - we have something in common. As you know, we're all homo sapiens sapiens. Our homo sapiens ancestors have been consuming grains for thousands of years before agriculture arose and to say that we haven't "fully evolved for the consumption of grain" is - pardon me for saying - ridiculous. Besides learning how to cook food, grains have been a staple in the modern human diet for centuries. Early human civilizations relied on grain. It's safe to say that we wouldn't even be here right now if it wasn't for our ancestors "discovering" it and it's no wonder seeing as grains are rich in both soluble and insoluble fiber, healthy fats, copper, zinc, iron, vitamins B6, A, and E, selenium, and more depending on what specific grain you're talking about. Compare this to refined grains such as in white bread, wherein most nutrients are stripped out during processing and then only a few added back in.

If you want to truly go back to the way our ancestors lived route, you would be outside foraging for food right now. You wouldn't have a permanent home, you wouldn't be taking medicine when you get sick and you most certainly would not be using the computer. Sorry if this seems like a strawman but humans have evolved with large, complex brains that enable us to adapt very quickly when it comes to food and health and it makes no sense to me why anyone would want to stay away from that. So what if our produce bares little resemblance to thousands of years ago (isn't that what you'd expect anyway)? Would you rather have many more people starving or malnourished due to lack of mass agriculture?

[Melissa W]

Hi Skwpt,
I am not misinformed but I do appreciate your point of view.
We do need carbs as Miss D points out for our brains and nervous system to function properly.

I am not trying to change your mind as I already said but just sharing what I believe is true. And for every article you can find agreeing with you I can find another (and another and another) to agree with my point of view. So no surprises there.

BTW 100% ditto to Miss D on the reason people are fat. They are fat because they have way more calories coming in than going out...i.e. they eat way too much!!

Best wishes,
Melissa

ps if I had a dime for every time posting here has caused me to be late to work LOL I would have lots of dimes laugh:

[Brady Barrows]

Brady wrote:
The bottom line is that we need carbs. For energy and for our brains and nervous system to function.


The bottom line is we need GLUCOSE which can be derived from carbohydrate, protein and fat. The other bottom line is that we need fat and protein and not carbohydrate.

[Melissa W]

The other bottom line is we need good carbs, not no carbs.

[Brady Barrows]

The other bottom line is we need good carbs, not no carbs.

What you are confused about is what carbohydrate is. Name the carbohydrate you are referring to that is essential for life, please.

If you name a vegetable, fruit, or grain, which is what you may think carbohydrate is, you are wrong. Vegetables, fruits, and grains usually contain carbohydrate, fat and protein. There are some exceptions, but they also usually contain fiber, minerals and vitamins. Carbohydrate is simply carbon and water. There is absolutely no minerals and vitamins. Some carbohydrate contains fiber which is essential and we already went through that in this thread. If you mean we need fiber, a carbohydrate, then yes, we need it to survive. But you cannot derive energy from fiber since humans cannot utilize the sugar in fiber like cows are able to do, due to their digestive system which utilizes the energy from fiber.

If you buy a box of brown sugar (or white sugar) or high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) there are no minerals or vitamins in this form of carbohydrate. If you had tons of white sugar and HFCS and tons of water on a desert island and nothing else you would perish since carbohydrate cannot keep you alive for very long. If on the other hand you had tons of protein and fat and zero carbohydrate you would survive. The point of this that it has been established that carbohydrate is not essential to life. The minimum daily requirement for carbohydrate (other than fiber) has never been established and you will not find a 'required' amount of carbohydrate (other than fiber) in any AHA, AMA or American Dietetic Association or USDA government official list. However, all these organizations will give you a minimum daily requirement for protein and fat since these two food groups are required for life.

So please name the carbohydrate that is essential for life other than glucose and fiber. I have already established that glucose is essential for life, so please let's not go there. The brain and body cells need glucose for energy. But you can obtain glucose from fat and protein. Name the carbohydrate other than glucose and fiber that is essential for life. Please, name the 'good' carbs that are essential for life.

And for anyone who wonders what this has to do with rosacea, this thread is the ROSACEA DIET. Eating high amounts of carbohydrate triggers rosacea. If you reduce your carbohydrate and raise your fat and protein your rosacea usually gets better. Many have reported this is true. Not everyone. But enough have supported this anecdotally that is now considered by many rosaceans as a rosacea trigger - eating high carbohydrate triggers rosacea. It is just as valid a trigger as any of the other proposed triggers.

[Brady Barrows]

The other bottom line is we need good carbs, not no carbs.

I don't think anyone said no carbs. The point is that carbohydrate is not essential for human survival since glucose can be derived from fat and protein.

No one, including me, is advocating zero carbohydrate. And you are right, the 'good carbs' such as complex carbohydrate in say whole grains and rice are better than the refined simple carbohydrate in white flour and rice. Molasses is better for you than refined white crystalized pure cane sugar since there are some minerals and vitamins in the molasses. However, eating high amounts of any of these carbohydrate may cause a rosacea trigger. Eating high carbohydrate is a way to see for yourself.

The brain cells do indeed need glucose and so do the other cells in our body. However, the truth is that carbohydrate is not needed to obtain the glucose since glucose can be broken down from fat and protein. Using carbohydrate as the energy source is more efficient and easier on the body than breaking down fat and protein into glucose.

So, please understand that I don't think anyone has said not to eat carbohydrate at all. That is not the point and you miss the point when you conclude that I or anyone in this thread is saying not to eat carbohydrate. The point is simply to reduce carbohydrate and as you point out if you want to eat carbohydrate eat the 'good carbs' such as complex carbohydrate, green vegetables and whole grains and rice.

So, it is NOT no carbs, but instead, REDUCE the carbs, raise your fat and protein and your rosacea may improve, which is one of the points of this thread.

[Brady Barrows]

Carbohydrates actually are essential for a healthy diet. They're found in fruit and vegetables too, but cereals have all sorts of additional nutrients and benefits that there's not really any reason to avoid them. Also, not all cereals have gluten.

"Proteins and fat are necessary building components for body tissue and cells, and are also a source of energy for most organisms.
Carbohydrates are not essential nutrients in humans: the body can obtain all its energy from protein and fats."

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate)

[Brady Barrows]

Hi Skwpt,
And for every article you can find agreeing with you I can find another (and another and another) to agree with my point of view. So no surprises there.

Yes, as this thread has shown, you can quote articles and so can I and others. And then the reader may choose a viewpoint. That is how it works.

Deciding what to eat and drink is what the Rosacea Diet, the title of this thread is all about. There are a number of viewpoints on what to eat for the 'rosacea diet' that will either reduce rosacea triggers or increase rosacea triggers. Whenever rosacea is discussed rosacea triggers inevitably will come up in every discussion. And rosacea trigger lists are then made which include diet triggers.

These diet triggers are made based entirely on anecdotal reports. When a rosacean reads this list this may also produce a viewpoint about this trigger list. But the bottom line is what one does with the list.

The reason anyone would even venture into this thread about the rosacea diet is to find out what to avoid or what one should eat. Eating high carbohydrate is a rosacea trigger simply due to the number of anecdotal reports saying that it is. There are no reports of a rosacea trigger due to eating high fat or protein. None. Absolutely Zero. Zip.

So, what one may conclude by reading this thread is simply this:

Maybe I should try reducing carbohydrate in my diet and raise my protein and fat and see what this does for my rosacea. Or they could read all the reports you are referring to and continue eating high carbohydrate as they have always done and never know. And isn't it wonderful to have threads like this that allow you and me to discuss the rosacea diet.

[Melissa W]

Hi Brady,

I never said anything about advocating a high carb diet LOL just as you said you never said no carbs- though I do believe that the underlying theme of the people pro low carb is to reduce carbs down to an unhealthy level. So, just to repeat- good carbs not no carbs and not very low carbs either. A good amount of healthy high complex carbs- a diet including but not limited to

olives and olive oil
whole grains, mostly in bread and cereal rather than past
very little red meat
fish and seafood
some cheese, but less milk
lots of vegetables and fruit
legumes and nuts
red wine (miss this one but there are other ways to get this benefit)

Let's sum up.
Good carbs not no carbs and not high carbs but IMO (and it is all our opinion now isn't it Brady) not low carbs either.

That just about sums it up doesn't it now.

It is important to eat a well balanced combination of nutrients found in unprocessed food. I feel that eating a Mediterranean type diet to be healthful.
Smaller portions, daily exercise, and emphasis on freshness and enjoyment of food.
No extreme ideas here.

And yes, it is wonderful that we can all discuss our thoughts about healthy ways of eating here in a civilized fashion yes:

[skwpt]

And for anyone who wonders what this has to do with rosacea, this thread is the ROSACEA DIET. Eating high amounts of carbohydrate triggers rosacea. If you reduce your carbohydrate and raise your fat and protein your rosacea usually gets better. Many have reported this is true.

Absolutely. Excess sugar/carb (even if I managed to eat hundreds of grams of innocent broccoli) creates a stress response in my body from insulin and cortisol swings, which leads to inflammation. For me, that inflammation shows up on my face.

Many years ago I used to go to OA (overeaters anonymous). I witnessed at least 8 people lose more than 100 pounds over the course of a year. What also impressed me was watching their red chins and noses and shiny, rosy cheeks calm down! Their diet was lowcarb (around 75g) and eliminated all sugar and flour. It included yogurt and oat bran and some members even ate bananas and pears. Best diet I was ever on. My energy was boundless and my mood could be described as nothing short of euphoric.

I read The Rosacea Diet back in 2002, and I agreed with most it. Even before I'd done my own scientific research, something about it felt instinctively right to me. I no longer limit my carbs to 20g a day (which I think is the starting point), but I certainly feel and look my best when I eat within ketogenic ranges, or under 100g. Everything benefits, and not just my skin: weight, adrenals, thyroid ... and I was able to completely reverse insulin resistance and go off all meds.

[MissD]

"Proteins and fat are necessary building components for body tissue and cells, and are also a source of energy for most organisms.
Carbohydrates are not essential nutrients in humans: the body can obtain all its energy from protein and fats."

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate)

The body can obtain energy from protein and fat as a last resort but what I'm trying to say is that carbohydrates are the most efficient source. When it comes to the point your body is using protein as fuel, you're in trouble (and most likely malnourished).

edit:

... Their diet was lowcarb (around 75g) and eliminated all sugar and flour. It included yogurt and oat bran and some members even ate bananas and pears. Best diet I was ever on. My energy was boundless and my mood could be described as nothing short of euphoric.

Not saying you were restricting to the point of starvation, but often when the body is deprived of nutrients and energy it induces a state of euphoria. When people follow a low carb diet they are mostly likely eating less calories as a result which could explain the weight loss.

More info on that here. (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/low-carb-diet/NU00279/NSECTIONGROUP=2)

[skwpt]

Not saying you were restricting to the point of starvation, but often when the body is deprived of nutrients and energy it induces a state of euphoria. When people follow a low carb diet they are mostly likely eating less calories as a result which could explain the weight loss.

I agree/accept there is no thermal advantage to losing weight. A calorie is a calorie. However, sticking to a food plan is much much easier if I am not having insulin spikes, and a controlled carb diet is what makes it happen. It's the kind of diet my great grandmother passed down, who eliminated bread and potatoes to keep her girlish figure.

What I like best about choosing a controlled carb diet over a lowfat one is that I can lose weight consistently on 1700 calories a day. I gained weight eating 1200 calories on a high carb/lowfat diet. So I don't actually need science or thousands of years of history to tell me that eating like a hunger-gatherer is the best choice for me. :) I am speaking only for myself and not trying to proselytize, but I get the feeling some members think a lowcarb diet is unhealthy. It doesn't have to equate bacon cheeseburgers every day.

So as for being nutritionally deprived, that is not the case. I log my food daily and make sure I eat a wide variety of different foods. For example, here is a typical day's menu when I am not trying to lose weight (e.g., around 2000 calories):

Breakfast: Full-fat cottage cheese with berries or 1/4 apple and walnuts.
Lunch: A head of romaine mixed with peppers, radishes, scallions, red onion, sprouts, walnuts, red cabbage, celery, watercress, cucumber, olives, carrot, sunflower seeds, cilantro, homegrown nasturtiums, endive, arugula, radicchio, chopped roast chicken with olive oil or walnut oil drizzled on top. I am infamous at work for my 10+ ingredient salads!
Dinner: Same basic thing for dinner as lunch (protein and salad), though I usually steam some veggies and top them with grass-fed butter. Or I might make "salad in a wok" with stir fried protein and tons of different veggies.
Dessert: A square of 88% cocoa gluten-free/dairy-free chocolate.

Every week I buy over 15 pounds of veggies, around 7 pounds of protein, and 7 pounds of fruit. For two people. Ain't no way we are nutritionally deprived!

[MissD]

I agree/accept there is no thermal advantage to losing weight. A calorie is a calorie. However, sticking to a food plan is much much easier if I am not having insulin spikes, and a controlled carb diet is what makes it happen. It's the kind of diet my great grandmother passed down, who eliminated bread and potatoes to keep her girlish figure.

Thing is, complex carbs like in whole grains don't spike your blood sugar, they actually stabilize it and they've generally been found to increase your mood as a bonus. But I guess everyone could react differently to the latter at least.

What I like best about choosing a controlled carb diet over a lowfat one is that I can lose weight consistently on 1700 calories a day. I gained weight eating 1200 calories on a high carb/lowfat diet.

That might be because when you eat more often your metabolism keeps on its toes, but when you restrict too much it slows down. But I don't know. I don't know you, I don't know what your habits are, I'm just saying.

Breakfast: Full-fat cottage cheese with berries or 1/4 apple and walnuts.
Lunch: A head of romaine mixed with peppers, radishes, scallions, red onion, sprouts, walnuts, red cabbage, celery, watercress, cucumber, olives, carrot, sunflower seeds, cilantro, homegrown nasturtiums, endive, arugula, radicchio, chopped roast chicken with olive oil or walnut oil drizzled on top. I am infamous at work for my 10+ ingredient salads!
Dinner: Same basic thing for dinner as lunch (protein and salad), though I usually steam some veggies and top them with grass-fed butter. Or I might make "salad in a wok" with stir fried protein and tons of different veggies.
Dessert: A square of 88% cocoa gluten-free/dairy-free chocolate.


All of that sounds delicious! That's the same type of stuff I eat, only I include lots of whole grains and the only meat I eat is seafood. Also, I've actually found 90% cocoa. I love it. :razz:

[Melissa W]

Hi Skwpt,
your typical daily menu sounds very good and yummy indeed yes: and the fact that you are including all that healthy stuff veggies and fruit etc. is great.
In fact it is not too different from my daily menu hi:

[skwpt]

Melissa, it does get tiresome chopping all those veggies! Luckily this time of year I crave more soup than salad, so into the crock pot it goes.

MissD, I typically eat only 2-3 meals a day because I often forget to eat. I suspect a bit of metabolism slowdown, especially because I am not a teenager any more, but I am not currently trying to lose weight, and I seem to be giving my body enough fuel. I figure I'll eat when I am hungry. The great thing is when my metabolism slows, my appetite decreases, so it all works out.

Grains make me happy and giddy for a few moments (I mean who doesn't drool over crusty French bread dipped in olive oil with lots of sediment), but it quickly turns to depression and lethargy. I suspect it's the whole gluten intolerance, which bums me out. I don't think I will ever be able to rotate wheat back into my diet like I will with the other problem foods. Depends on whether I truly have celiac or not. I haven't been tested because you have to be actively eating gluten, and there are still false positives and negatives, and I am not jumping for joy at the thought of a big endoscope going down my esophagus.

Life without bread sucks (especially around holidays), but life without dairy makes me want to weep. <boo hoo>

Now that I have hijacked a thread, I ought to go back and read it from the start.

[MissD]

MissD, I typically eat only 2-3 meals a day because I often forget to eat.

I only eat like 3-4 meals a day too. I don't even follow my own advice. :-$

Grains make me happy and giddy for a few moments (I mean who doesn't drool over crusty French bread dipped in olive oil with lots of sediment), but it quickly turns to depression and lethargy. I suspect it's the whole gluten intolerance, which bums me out.

Well like I said, some whole grains are gluten-free like quinoa.

Now I'm hungry for French bread, yay.

Life without bread sucks (especially around holidays), but life without dairy makes me want to weep. <boo hoo>

Two words: almond milk.

Now that I have hijacked a thread, I ought to go back and read it from the start.

If I had a dime for every time I hijacked a thread...

[skwpt]

Almond milk is to die for. Unfortunately, I am sensitive to almonds. Yep, I am no fun.

[MissD]

Hi,
Thank you for sharing information.It is important to know the foods to eat for rosacea. Certain foods can trigger or worsen rosacea symptoms. Once you determine which foods cause rosacea, it is important to develop a personalized diet for rosacea.
We will now discuss the foods to eat for rosacea, which foods cause rosacea, and the best treatment to use. This information will help you develop a diet for rosacea. ...

Hey Maria,

Not all people with rosacea have dietary triggers so I think it's important not to worry a whole lot or go through a bunch of diets by yourself without the help of a registered dietitian. In fact, some people might just have food sensitivities and/or allergies as diagnosed by a doctor and not rosacea at all.

[Auburn]

Hi MissD hi:,

I read Maria's post earlier today. The last sentence "We will now discuss..." sounded very "disconnected" and weird so I googled it and, well, the whole post was c&p'ed from some skin site. blink:

Anyway, your advice is definitely sound. In my case, foods do not trigger rosacea/seb derm.

[Melissa W]

I read Maria's post earlier today. The last sentence "We will now discuss..." sounded very "disconnected" and weird so I googled it and, well, the whole post was c&p'ed from some skin site. blink:

Thanks for the heads up Auburn. I have deleted Maria's post.

[Auburn]

You are welcome, Melissa. Now, that was a dumb spam, wasn't it? No direct link, no product/brand mentioned. Weird.

[Melissa W]

Auburn NH wrote:
You are welcome, Melissa. Now, that was a dumb spam, wasn't it? No direct link, no product/brand mentioned. Weird.


I know...I don't understand it blink:
I appreciate the extra help for sure though!
Thanks againsidehug:

[MissD]

Hi MissD hi:,

I read Maria's post earlier today. The last sentence "We will now discuss..." sounded very "disconnected" and weird so I googled it and, well, the whole post was c&p'ed from some skin site. blink:

Anyway, your advice is definitely sound. In my case, foods do not trigger rosacea/seb derm.

Yeah that was really weird. I just assumed that English wasn't her first language or something.

[skwpt]

You are welcome, Melissa. Now, that was a dumb spam, wasn't it? No direct link, no product/brand mentioned. Weird.

At first I thought it was someone for whom English was not a native language, but when I read it again, I guessed it might be a troll.