Ban on Normal light in Aust- switching to fluro's by 2009!

[Froggirl]

Our Prime Minister, that until the last few months has denied that climate change exists and that just last year doubled our biggest coal plant (which billows black smoke day and night) instead of investing in wind farms, has just announced that he's doing our bit for the environment by phasing out normal style lights...meaning that everywhere can only have fluro lights!

Arughhh fluro lights make my skin flush badly and I won't be able to escape them. :shock:

It's so stupid, i pay nearly double for my electricity so that it is green energy and comes from renewable sources such as wind and solar so my house does not produce carbon or other green house gases anyway. But it's okay for me to run my aircon as much as i want or to buy a big giant fuel guzzeling 4wd to drive in the city. :evil:

[Steve95301]

Absolutely outrageous.

[Peter]

Hello Kate

How are you?

That sounds a real bummer and a very strange decision by people out of touch with reality.

Slightly off the subject but still connected because I know you had some problems when you tried RLT but were not sure if it was the light causing it or something else unrelated? Given you are hyper sensitive to fluorescent lighting do you think it was this reaction that caused your difficulties? Not sure how long you tried the lamp for but there is an RLT questionnaire (need to have used it for at least 8 weeks) being posted up in a couple of month’s time which you might want to contribute to. The more feedback the better as far as I am concerned.

All the best

Peter

[bkjr]

ARrrrr, don't get me going...

They are now making a push in in the U.S.A. to ban basic incandescent light bulbs too.

The main problem with fluorescents is that they take more resources to manufacture and contain mercury.

Proper disposal and the associated cost have never been dealt with.

Part of the bigger picture the alarmist don't care to look at, they just want to drive certain business interest on the call of "global warming".

Lobbiest dollars at work.

It's like if we all had electrical cars now in the U.S.. Sure at the car level there'd be no emissions.. but dealing with all the lead from the batteries (based on if the technology had taken hold 10 year ago), and the increased output from the power plants, which our current administration saw fit to roll back the green laws to reduce power plant emissions.. so current power plant pollute more than today's cars do. So we would have just moved the bad gassed from the tail pipe to the smoke stacks.

It's one thing if we moved the bad gasses to the smoke stacks AND kept addressing those emissions, not rolling back policies.

[sweden]

That "global warming" is a reality is beyond dispute, and countries like USA who contribute the most to this bad development will likely sooner or later realize that their economy will lose far more by not taking precautionary actions, than what it costs to take these actions. However, I also hate fluorescent lights and there are probably other and better ways to deal with the climate problems.

[bkjr]

That "global warming" is a reality is beyond dispute, and countries like USA who contribute the most to this bad development will likely sooner or later realize that their economy will lose far more by not taking precautionary actions, than what it costs to take these actions. However, I also hate fluorescent lights and there are probably other and better ways to deal with the climate problems.

20 years ago they yelled we were heading for an ice age, with no doubt, unquestionably, beyound dispute.

2 years ago they were saying the U.K. was looking at the immediate threat of much colder and longer winters.

Trends need to be looked at with much more experienced time lines than we have access to.

Without getting in to a global warming discussion.... no matter if it's an ice age coming or a global warming, or just climate changes in different areas of the world... pollution is a fact and problem.

I totally agree, either way pollution does need to be dealt with at every level. And it's a global problem. What one country does or doesn't do, effects all countries long term.

It's funny (no really mean "sad" - funny in a very sad way) to see state by state with in the U.S., the pollution credits and problems. One plant on the boarder of two states was fined within it's own state due to the decrease in the local air quality. When it was finally researched after corrective actions failed to bring the air quality back up, it was found to be the plant across the boarder in the next state that was using a ton of pollution credits to pass it's stack emissions. And the winds were such for that season, but not last season. What a said state of affairs.
Boarders on a map mean nothing to mother nature.

Population wise we are overloading the infrastructure of the earth.

Putting more mercury into the land fills and increase power usage by 3 x in factories to make a an "efficient light bulb" is just moving the pollution around.

I think the U.S. is rated to contribute 20% to emissions, yes the highest of any country - to date. China will over take the U.S. in emissions within this decade with no green policies or concerns at all in place. At least before this administration the U.S. was making some headway.
Now more than ever our policies are sadly driven by corporate bottom line, immediate $ return for the quarter and no forward thinking or outlook.

Anyone remember the "wall vampires" this recent administration used to highlight their Positive Energy Policies, back about 6 years ago??
While the technical reasons that make the 60hz transformer based wall brick such a power waster (when left plugged in but not being used) is entirely true..... as this eco-pol case was being made over in this hand for that, over here in the other hand they were rolling back emission and pollution policies the past administration had inplace, and letting big business get out of their commitments to clean up their emissions (bad for the bottom line-screw the ecology). :roll:

It's the feel good policies, like making incandescent light bulbs illegal / fluorescents mandatory, and pollution credits, that drive me crazy.

[phlika29]

Well since we have stumbled into the pollution/global warming arena perhaps those in the UK would like to help Friends of the Earth in their campaign to get the Uk governemnt to set stricter emission targets, etc:

http://www.foe.co.uk/campaigns/climate/press_for_change/email_mp/index.html

[Froggirl]

20 years ago they yelled we were heading for an ice age, with no doubt, unquestionably, beyound dispute.

2 years ago they were saying the U.K. was looking at the immediate threat of much colder and longer winters.

Trends need to be looked at with much more experienced time lines than we have access to.

I can't resist responding to this given that i am an environmetal scientist, and hopefully it helps to motivate someone reading this to click on the link Philka29 has posted, because believe me global warming is going to effect us all.

We actually have access to incredibily long times lines, sendiment cores provide us temperature data for the last 5 million years! And we have much more detailed climate information on the last 100 000 years through methods such as ice cores and tree rings and fossil records of pollen.

And the consensis of scientists about global warming was the same 20 years ago as it is now. The ice age thing refers to the earths 10,000 year cycle of glacial/interglacial periods, a cycle which has occured for at least the last 5 millions years, a cycle which is now being disrupted due to climate change.

Putting more mercury into the land fills and increase power usage by 3 x in factories to make a an "efficient light bulb" is just moving the pollution around.

But I do totally agree with Bkjr on the point so often we do trade one set of issue for another without any overall progress being made. For me though it's nothing to do with alarmists but rather politicans and industries making token efforts to be green, in an attempt to be seen as being environmental friendly while actually not making any significant changes or committments. So in Aust this light bulb thing means our Prime minister can position himself as green (we have an election coming up) while also slashing funding for the environment.

Now i'll get off my soapbox..... :wink:

[fut]

That's absolutely outrageous!

What about the fact that fluorescent lights make anyones skin look 2x as bad - how much more depressed that would make people on a whole?

Not worth it!!!!

[GJ]

That "global warming" is a reality is beyond dispute, and countries like USA who contribute the most to this bad development will likely sooner or later realize that their economy will lose far more by not taking precautionary actions, than what it costs to take these actions.

Later, rather than sooner I guess.

We are all doomed. Or rather, people a few generations down the line are doomed.

Like most folk I can't quite bring myself to make sacrifices for souls who do not yet exist.

The First World is in no position to demand that China, India etc behave responsibly as they industialise. We do not have a moral leg to stand on.

The only solution is for us to clean up our act and throw money (massively, selflessly, with no expectation of return) at these industrialising nations so that they can bear the cost of behaving well.

I have news for you: this will not happen.

And this will not happen because I am about to jump in my car and drive to a place, not half a mile down the road, and buy stuff that I don't really need.

[bkjr]

For me though it's nothing to do with alarmists but rather politicans and industries making token efforts to be green, in an attempt to be seen as being environmental friendly while actually not making any significant changes or committments. So in Aust this light bulb thing means our Prime minister can position himself as green (we have an election coming up) while also slashing funding for the environment.

Now i'll get off my soapbox..... :wink:

Move over I need to get up on your soapbox for a moment....

That's my main point.. I'm not saying we aren't in a warming trend (how much over how long is really a mute point, but there are varing degrees of opinions and other input variables being ignored in some studies, so I've read.), or that we have a handle on the abuse of our resources and atmosphere.

It obvious we just can't keep pumping posion into our ground and air and expect not to have side effects.

BUT.. it's the soap boxes the politicians and big business build for a politician to run on through campaign contributions. Then the candidate needs to support those that funded him and continue to do. So in the end it's not the best choice that's being funded with our tax dollars, but the choice a special interest group wanted due to their deeper pockets, purely for their bottom line. Not for the people or country.

I'm an engineer and have worked on EV and HEV programs for both mil and commercial programs since the 80's. And some work on subsytems for fuel cells. So while environmental science is not my profession as it is for you Froggirl (and now your forum name makes tons of sense to me :D ), it's an interest for me. So I"ve gotten to see facts from the inside compared to what special interest groups tell the public, or a politician parrots. All can be summed up by one word "Marketing". Facts are bent, left out, altered, conscrewed, to fit the findings to sell a product or political stance to make people feel good about the path their being led down.

Under protest I wont watch Gore's film. From the reviews I've read, and from people who spoke to me about the film, it has broad stroke statements to make "their" case that are inaccurate. AND it was done as a political campaign tool, not a serious documentary or paper, even though he denies it in the film. Uhhm, what did Freud say about those types of statements and comments??? Back when he made the film and statements about it not being a campaign soap box, others said.. see, he has no "wants" to be a politician and he's no longer in the white house, so he's just being a good guy (this is the same guy that thinks he invented the Internet in the 90's, that I was using in the mid 80's). well that was a year ago.. and now he's looking to be in the Whitehouse again. Surprise !! NOT !!! Once a shark alway a shark.

As with the Aussie PM, I can't back someone who's already indebt to certain industries that built his soap box, just so he has something to stand on.

Now getting into how much of an effect propose changes will have on " reversing the trend " vs just treating our green earth well, is another whole thing that's causing environmental scientist to loose, or be threaten to loose their jobs here in the U.S.. They are told don't question, just tow the line or loose your job. That's wrong, and smells as if agendas are more important the making the right choices and investments. The only way such studies can be made reliable is if they can be held up to debate and scrutiny by their peers, openly. Period the End. If they aren't allowed to be, then they aren't FACT, but some one's conclusion and shouldn't be used to drive policy.

*Sigh*, Ok that's off my chest, but won't do a darn thing to help the world either ! LOL



The only solution is for us to clean up our act and throw money (massively, selflessly, with no expectation of return) at these industrialising nations so that they can bear the cost of behaving well.

I have news for you: this will not happen.

And this will not happen because I am about to jump in my car and drive to a place, not half a mile down the road, and buy stuff that I don't really need.
GJ, I think your soo right...
We learned from our mistakes being the first nations to industrialize.
We ARE throwing money at them, but it's being used for them to just further industrialize and build up their military might. All because we want more, cheaper, faster , quicker. The U.S. was once was a great industrial economic power , is just a "corporate power" (left out the word "great" on purpose) feeding it's bottom line each quarter off the backs of very cheap labor in the "growing" countries, where they don't have an EPA to add costs and overhead required to control emissions and waste. We did it with Japan, now China and India are next.
With Japan, it was in help rebuilding after WWII, with China and India, it's just because the profit is never big enough. (and don't get me going on the immigration issues)
And N Korea is just soo pissed over it. I think he's just dieing for the day he can hover his finger over the big red button and play with the "big boys".

We are soo screwed. Where do you think 90% of the board level components come from in the "glass cockpit" of a military aircraft.... China. If we get into war with China (can you say WWIII), we'd need to learn all over again how to be an industrial nation and make our own spare board level parts. It's freekin scary.

Fut:
What about the fact that fluorescent lights make anyones skin look 2x as bad - how much more depressed that would make people on a whole?
Feel any better now ?!


And I wonder why my Rosacea is mostly stressed based. :roll:

[glamormom]

I've used full spectrum bulbs for years (I have SAD too) and they are wonderful. My depression was greatly helped in the winter by these violet-coated bulbs. They've had full spectrum compact flourescent bulbs for a long time, you just have to special order them.

I recently tried to switch over to compact fl. bulbs which are now available at very low cost at our grocery store locally, but the light is quite yellow even compared to a regular incandescent white bulb's light. I had to switch the lamps back to FS incandescents, which are now widely available at much lower cost than they used to be (Home Depot carries them now in the lighting aisle). But when I get around to it am goign to look up the FS compact FL bulbs and see what they're costing now. The lifetime of the bulbs is very long and the energy required to burn them is much lower than regular incandescent lighting, Most of the energy consumed in American homes I think is lighting. Will be pain to go hunt them up, but worth it for me, since I can't tolerate the yellowish light of the regular compact FLs
;o) Bridget

[Froggirl]

So Bkjr, you make some good points so looks like we actually agree more than we disagree!

I do really have hope that we can address climate change or at least mitigate it's effects (might be blind optimists though) but it does require really major major changes in government policies and require vast amounts of money. Not doing anything though is going to end up costing us vast amounts of money too and that's what makes me think it is possible that governments and industry will take significant action.

I haven't seen Al Gores Movie either, i feel it has done a lot of good though in raising awareness of the issue, I've worked close to politicans before though so it wouldn't suprise me if what you say is true, I'd like to believe otherwise but it is a cut throat game, the best we can proably hope for is that any political candidate's environmental committments lines up with their career asperations, so that one doesn't have to get sacrificed for the other. Phew that's really got my brain going for first thing on a Sunday morning!

Bridget that's great news that full spectrum bulbs may not be an issue like normal bulbs. I'll have to get my hands on one and see what effect it has on my flushing.

[GJ]

[. (and don't get me going on the immigration issues)


I see James Lovelock is predicting a mass movement of peoples northwards as global warming bites and lands in equatorial regions become barren.

Those in Canada, the northern states of the US, northern Europe and Siberia should be dusting down their 'Welcome' mats.

Tremendous. In the midst of ruin and tragedy, an opprtunity to behave charitably and compassionately to souls from the south.

Every cloud..

[bkjr]

s[. (and don't get me going on the immigration issues)


I see James Lovelock is predicting a mass movement of peoples northwards as global warming bites and lands in equatorial regions become barren.

Those in Canada, the northern states of the US, northern Europe and Siberia should be dusting down their 'Welcome' mats.

Tremendous. In the midst of ruin and tragedy, an opprtunity to behave charitably and compassionately to souls from the south.

Every cloud..

Na, that's another whole issue. 20 years ago they said we'd all be going south of the board, towards the equator to get away from the ice fields.
Cold weather kills more people each year than does hot weather in our cities.

That comment was made in light of issues of today and big business's effect on how govt enforces present day immigration procedures and laws. As in "not"........

[GJ]

Since I know little about current affairs ( 'I can gather all the news I need from the weather report' ), are you saying that the US government is lax on immigration because of pressures applied by big business (presuambly as a consequence of their desire for cheap(er) labour)?

Cheers.

[bkjr]

Since I know little about current affairs ( 'I can gather all the news I need from the weather report' ), are you saying that the US government is lax on immigration because of pressures applied by big business (presuambly as a consequence of their desire for cheap(er) labour)?

Cheers.

GJ, Based on your "Cheers" and some of your spelling, I assume your from the U.K.?

Yes...... and it's not even laxed, it's turning the other way and allowing them to cross over illegally and work without proper papers.
Which then allows the employer not to follow gov't minimum standard for pay and benefits, or OSHA rules or workplace standards.

A company also has to match certain federal taxes and pay certain insurance premiums for workers that are documented or citizens. With being an undocumented worker (because they are illegal immigrants)(legal immigrants are documented and in the system), it's as if they aren't here, so the companies don't pay into the system, as well as the undocumented worker doesn't pay into the system either.. and they all save money, lots of money. BUT, when the worker does get hurt, they run to the nearest emergency room and get free service, since they can never be followed up with to be charged for services. There are laws that the hospitals can't turn away a person and there are other programs the gov't set up that do pay even they aren't documented.
(I don't know the particulars, it's what I've read in the news papers and on the signs on the walls of the Emergency rooms I've been in)

All of this is a heavy load from 20million illegal immigrants / undocumented workers that are not in the system.. and those of us that pay our taxes are seeing a never ending increase to support it. All while big business reeps additional increases in their profit each year, on top of last years with record earnings. It all started with outsourcing to China and India, but some jobs just can't be outsourced, so to control labor costs , the jobs are maned by the illegal immigrants which are undocumented workers.

So big business doesn't want a thing to change. Even if the undocumented, become documented and legal, it'll drive up costs for the business.

At the local level, if the undocumented worker is say a carpenter or landscaper and works for a contractor, those that are undocumented are not covered by the insurance their "employer", the contractor, is suppose to have on them, and wind up suing the home owner if they get hurt on the home owner's property, where a legal citizen, or documented worker would be covered by the mandatory insurance the employer/contractor must carry.

The illegal immigrant / undocumented worker used to lay low and not wanting to draw attention. They've pretty much learned that the gov't is ignoring the situation, and now they have rallies demanding citizenship and immunity. Now they sue for big $$ settlements. :roll:

There are local police laws that DO NOT ALLOW the local police to arrest a person for lack of citizenship.
Locally we had just passed a law that made it mandatory that a person be arrested if they were caught driving with out a license and had no other forum of ID. It seems all the activists got wind of this and found that the majority of arrest were of people with Spanish surnames. And lawsuits started, saying it was profiling.... well as it turns out the area/town with the major % of arrests have a huge illegal immigration population. And they are driving around with out licenses or proper state mandatory insurance. So when they get into an accident, they drive up local insurance rates as they get involved in accidents. Which is what drove the law in the first place, to crack down on unlicensed , uninsured drivers.

[Skywolf]

Also, illegal workers will work cheap, that is another reason big buisnass keeps them they are getting the best of everyting, hard workers (and they are) for cheap. In the meantime, our starting pay is shit because they know they can hire for cheap. I cant live on 6.25 an hour I have bills to pay, rent, I do like to eat now and then. I have been looking for a job, and half of them insist I must speak Spanish, This is not fair to me. I would not go to any country and expect them to learn my languaage, but in my own country I cannot get a job, for decent pay, without speaking Spanish. I live in Chicago, which has has a huge Polish community, they all manage. I have never been turned down for a job because I do not speak Polish

[ablondemoment]

Forgive my ignorance but are fluros really bad for your skin? the reason I ask is because our home which is 25 yrs old came with fluros. We are in the slow process of renovating, but have left the lights till last on the to do list, as they are cheap to run- with 4 kids makes a big difference. With regards to the sickly look we have changed to the warm white tone which improves things a great deal. have never heard of fluros affecting rosacea or making symptoms worse. have i missed a write up somewhere?

a very "blondemoment" :?

[GJ]

Thanks very much bkjr. And thanks for your input too, Skywolf.

Many of the states of the European Union have, it seems, struggled to formulate workable and fair immigration policies; not least the UK, which has messed-up considerably.

This, I guess, is one of the consequences of building affluent and democratic societies: lots of folk, not unreasonably, are keen to live there.

[bkjr]

Skywolf, I feel your pain. I've been laid off 4 times due to out sourcing and closing of companies that moved sections or in whole off shore.
An entire industry I once worked on and had a choice of 30 companies to work for is mostly gone. Down to maybe 2-3. I've changed the emphasis on my work talents to increase my value to other companies in other industries.

Yes GJ, I feel both the U.S. and U.K. have peaked past their prime.
The loads placed on our countries are going to be our downfall.

ablondemoment, sorry to have hijacked the thread.. a very good question, to which I didn't know there was an effect from the lighting. It seems by reading Froggirls first post, I would assume she's saying she has side effects from the FL lights.. but straight to the "source", please "enlighten us".... ( sorry, puns intended.)
Froggirl? (again my apologies for hijacking the thread)...

[Froggirl]

No worries about hijaking from me, all the posts have been very interesting and any distractions are very welcome right now, including any attempts at humor!

Fluro lights do really seem to make me flush, either than or they just highlight every red bit of my skin so much more! Maybe i just can't see most of it in nautral light. I'm really not 100% sure, but would rather avoid it if i can, particularly if there are mirrors around!

The places that make me flush the worst, like work, hospitals, doctors surgeries all have fluro lighting, but they also are quite warm, which could be the real culprit. I have heard a few people on these forums say fluro lights are a trigger from them too though. My doctor really couldn't think of any possible explaination for fluro lighting being an issue, but did say if the blood vessels are sensative enough nearly anything can cause flushing.

[bkjr]

Thats very interesting.
Talking out loud here...
At first I thought to myself could it be that since Fluro lighting is not very forgiving it's an emotional reflex.. you know, the worry of looking bad in that light, so the flushness happens due to the anxiety of thinking of looking bad in that light.
But then I thought, and I don't know much about it, but our skin is UV sensitive and does have bio-chemical reactions to sunlight (pigment change, producing certain vitamins and so on).. so why not have a bio-chemical reaction to the certain UV produced by the fluro lights.. plants do too....
interesting...
Then there's light therapy for our "internal" clock. And from some studies I read way back when, it had nothing todo with "seeing" the light.. but more so the type of light one was exposed to. Again, a bio-chemical reaction? through the skin?

[redhotoz]

I can't stand fluoro lighting. I don't have any in my house. Any fluoros that were here were repalced with mood lighting and dimmer switches. I love dimmers! I even have a dimmer for the lights along my back patio. Lovely on a cold winter's night, lights down low, the glow of the patio heater...sigh!

I wonder if the Government will allow people to submit a medical report (eg. Rosacea) so that we don't have to change over? I may just try it when it gets closer. I have a fair few lawyer mates. Will be interesting what the Government might say about that?! Mmm!

Jen

[ablondemoment]

I've got to say fluro's are not high on my like list either,particularly in the context of mood setting. Sort of reminds me of a sterile and cold hospital hall. Though if my memory serves me well the sickly green colour added to the complexion, was due perhaps more to the fact that in the 70's , green was the "in" thing to paint your walls. :-& fluros and reflected colour from sick colour walls.What a double whammy. i totally agree mood lighting soft...soft ..soft..sitting in the glow of a blazing fire. Preferably in the fire place and not watching your house burn down. Oh well will head off to bed am loosing the plot after a midnight effort last night completing an assignment.

Cheers

[redhotoz]

...in the 70's , green was the "in" thing to paint your walls. :-& fluros and reflected colour from sick colour walls...

:lol: My walls are green, with deep purple feature walls and terracotta highlights! Don't worry, doesn't look like a 70's interior! The hall way is a mustard colour. I reckon it looks pretty modern. The paint colours all have bizarre names now-a-days. Like...hang on...I've got some sample cards here: "Turkish Aqua"; "Egyptian Enamel"; "Sea Creature"; "Purple Passion"; "Tequila Sunrise" etc etc. Kinda fun.

Jen

[ablondemoment]

Got to LoL about the name of colours. Can you imagine describing your interior to friends ? Instead of..." I have blue walls in the bathroom, yellow in the kitchen" the coversation may sound like you were under the influence of something. " I have Sea Creature walls in the bathroom, Tequila sunrise in the kitchen,and purple passion in the bedroom". Makes the mind spin...too many Tequilas I think. How exactly would they describe the redness associated with our condition I wonder? Maybe if we come up with another term it won't sound so bad and may give us all a psychological boost.Enough from me , have lost the plot of this thread again.
Rita

[Froggirl]

Lol Imagine that if we did do that, some possibilties from the dulux catalgue are pink parakeet, scarlett ribbons and carmin mirnada? Much more exciting that saying red or erythema!

I wonder if the Government will allow people to submit a medical report (eg. Rosacea) so that we don't have to change over? I may just try it when it gets closer. I have a fair few lawyer mates. Will be interesting what the Government might say about that?! Mmm!

I really think they'll have to because people with lupus and photosensativity are sensative enough to react badly to the small amount of uv in fluro light. Surely they would have to know that fluro lights are going to be a medical problem for these people?

[fut]

Check out this link:
LEDs emerge to fight fluorescents (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070513/ap_on_hi_te/led_lighting;_ylt=Ang1MAtG90jsXNgGkswNd9IDW7oF)

[Froggirl]

Yay! Thanks Fut, I hope the LED lights really take off!

[Steve95301]

Fluorescent lights giving pupils headaches

Children are increasingly being put at risk of headaches because of the amount of fluorescent lighting in schools, researchers claim.

Eight in 10 classrooms in England are fitted with excessively bright and flickering lights which have been linked to eye strain and loss of concentration, a Cambridge University study says today.

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/06/nlights106.xml)

[Steve95301]

Rays of Rash (http://www.globaltv.com/globaltv/globalshows/16x9/video.html?maven_playerId=16x9extralargeplayer&maven_referralPlaylistId=b21903f607126ddafaf4a2be2 fdd36c48e7fe239&maven_referralObject=3408462) (video)

[phlika29]

I went out today and bought 40x100W light bulbsninja: I think I only have two lights in the house that I use such a bright lightlaugh:

[man_from_mars]

I'll buy you a couple cases before our own US ban kicks in 2012 hi:

but I feel confident the price of LED soft bulbs will come down in price by then


http://www.buildingforhealth.com/proddetail.php?prod=CC_2SW