Red LEDs and why you look calm afterwards

[liz]

Hi All,

I have been using red (660nm) LEDs for a while now with no side effects. In fact the 400+ LEDs seem to be very effective at calming a general red face and supressing the flushing (moderate flushes) the next day.. I use it for at least an hour every night.

I noticed that people comment that their face appears calm and non-red after using it and not to burst people's bubbles but there maybe a reason why this is so. After the first time I used it - no goggles, just eyes shut - and then went for a walk outside I noticed that the street lamps which were normally orange in hue all had a green/blue tint to it. It faded after about 10-20 minutes. I noticed it now when looking at my clock/radio after a session as well.

I think my LEDs DO calm my face, but your first glance is not accurate..

See here ->
" The red-sensitive cells in that region start to grow tired and stop responding strongly to red light. A white board reflects red, blue, and green light to your eyes (since white light is made up of all these colors). When you suddenly shift your gaze to the blank white board, the fatigued red-sensitive cells don't respond to the reflected red light, but the blue-sensitive and green-sensitive cones respond strongly to the reflected blue and green light. As a result, where the red-sensitive cells don't respond you see a bluish-green bird. This bluish-green color is called cyan"


So I think we tire out a red receptors in the eye with an extended period of sitting under bright red light so that we when stop and look at our faces in the mirror our eyes are just not as responsive to the red in our face as there were beforehand. Having said this, it does return to normal 20 mins or so later, and I do still notice a general calming of the skin.

For what its worth.

Liz

[Steve95301]

So it would probably be more useful to shine red light at other people.

I know what you mean, though, I've noticed the same effect looking at myself in the car mirror while sitting at a red stoplight.

[IowaDavid]

Opaque tanning goggles--try them out. ;)

I just see darkness when I use my array. My face is calm after treatments, and it stays that way for several hours afterwards. Now, it's built to the point I don't need to use my red light array before I go off to do something that will strain my rosacea. It's a cumulative effect, as far as I can tell--the longer you use it, the more flushing "pre-emption" you'll see.

[liz]

I agree completely.. it does appear to be a building lasting effect .. probably noticable a couple of months into using it.

I also notice the calming effect after using it, just that its probably best not to look in the mirror straightaway to see if your session 'did anything' especially if you have not used any goggles, cause your eyeballs will lie..., well the receptors in them will anyway for the next half hour :)

[IowaDavid]

I agree completely.. it does appear to be a building lasting effect .. probably noticable a couple of months into using it.

I also notice the calming effect after using it, just that its probably best not to look in the mirror straightaway to see if your session 'did anything' especially if you have not used any goggles, cause your eyeballs will lie..., well the receptors in them will anyway for the next half hour :)

Just shield your eyes--then you can have a tabula rasa when you look at your face after an exposure session. ;)

[Twickle Purple]

My husband sees the difference afterward. He is not in the room during the sessions.

[Peter]

I always keep my eyes shut with goggles on when using the lamp and my skin in the earlier days looked calmer and paler when I checked in the mirror afterwards.

Liz - Have you noticed any subtle changes in the appearance and texture of your skin plus does it feel smoother and softer?

Peter

[liz]

Peter - Yes and no. It's been approx 4 months and I do think there has been a (albeit very small) change in texture. However I just had a v-beam done so that will throw any experiment with LEDs out the window in the short term.

I still used the LED straight after treatment though - didn't hurt nor hinder the recovery.

Given that my face can undergo changes at the drop of a hat (with seb derm and all as well) its hard to say if the LEDs are of benefit or not. I believe they are, I like its ability to supress to some extent the flush response afterwards. I hope that any improvement I think I have seen continues building in the months to come.

Liz

[Peter]

Hello Liz

After 4 months has any redness been reduced? I found that within a month that I lost much of the redness and my skin looked better and was noticeably softer around the cheeks. When I first started using RLT in November 98 I was also taking Clonidine for flushing, so difficult to say how much the lamp helped with this, although when I stopped this drug in 02 the flushing problems never returned and I suspect RLT contributed to this.

I hope in another 4 months time that your improvement has continued and you can report back with this news.

Good luck

Peter

[liz]

Peter - I do think redness is reduced, especially after treatment with the LEDs. I also find that the flushing response is moderated somewhat as well, and so I continue using it to help fight this.

I think LEDs are more a preventative treatment - I can't seem them actually being able to destroy visible vessels which is what I have laser treatment for. A combination of diet to improve the seb derm and avoiding triggers to keep the existing vessels from dialating too much and LED therapy to improve texture and keep a further lid on the flushing and I can look very pale some days. Like anything though, it does fluctuate day by day, week by week. I actually think there is a hormonal impact in play as well..

I was thinking of including some yellow LEDs and infrared LEDs as well (with googles) to my existing setup to see if this helps with the seb derm/pimples etc. Any thoughts on combining the three or so colours in the one hit.. does this make them any less effective?


liz

[hozer2k]

Or you can choose to try just one half of the face and take a lot of the guess work out of it. So much of this is perception which is very difficult to quantify, especially with different personalities and what may psychological benefits.

[GJ]

Different people with different personalities!

Who'd have thought it !?

At some point in the very near future I will be receiving a few (solely) 880nm arrays. I will continue with the two-sided RLT treatments but will treat one side only with infrared too.

Will that side improve more quickly?

Will its rate of improvement slow?

Will it deteriorate?

Who knows? Upon this expectation of enlightentment lies the joy of science!

I think.

[Twickle Purple]

I only perceive my improvement from pain and redness. And the fact that my husband sees less redness, and that physicians and science confirm that RLT reduces inflammation only proves the mass hysteria theory! :-s

[hozer2k]

Have there been studies on rosacea? Studies done for other treatments may not be applicable.

Rosacea can vary season to season, day to day, year to year. Other treatments done in conjunction can also affect results. Many variables to consider before you can accurately make a judgement.

Must try to separate fact from speculation. Easy to do this. Silly not to.

[Twickle Purple]

Have there been studies on rosacea? Studies done for other treatments may not be applicable.

Rosacea can vary season to season, day to day, year to year. Other treatments done in conjunction can also affect results. Many variables to consider before you can accurately make a judgement.

Must try to separate fact from speculation. Easy to do this. Silly not to.

Yes of course. Now I realize the good doctor interviewed for this article doesn't not site any studies, but I suspect he has reasonably sound judgement.

This is copied from the Yahoo! Rosacea Support site, which sourced this link: http://www.dermatologytimes.com/dermatologytimes/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=361119

David Goldberg, M.D is:
* Director of Skin Laser & Surgery Specialists of New York and New Jersey
* Clinical professor of dermatology, and
* Director of laser research at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York

Dr. Goldberg, uses LED therapy to treat Rosacea, says the red light works on the inflammation of the condition and yellow lessens redness.

Dr. Goldberg says. "The yellow LED and IPL both lessen redness, so they work in synergy. We will often combine the yellow LED with red LED, the latter of which works well on the inflammation of the condition."

Good enough for me.

[hozer2k]

Some people will accept what they read as good enough. There are different approaches. Some people are more persistant in getting answers.

Doctors are not the end all and be all, and certainly do not a good track record with rosacea. This particular doctor seems to indicate the usage of "acne rosacea" a couple times, an outdated term. No studies have been performed.

Doctors try different things in hopes they may work. Without studies to back them up, they are guessing as well.

Simply put, I do not agree with the approach of taking what is read and accepting it when you have a greater power yourself to make an informed decision.

Dissapointed others are not being proactive about trying to isolate the efficacy. Easy to do, leads to better decisions. To me, the advantages far outweight the disadvantages.

Even if any particular treatment works for others, it should always be assessed at an individual level. Only you can find out for yourself.

The point of this is to take control. Ignoring this really makes no sense.

[Twickle Purple]

David Goldberg, M.D is:
* Director of Skin Laser & Surgery Specialists of New York and New Jersey
* Clinical professor of dermatology, and
* Director of laser research at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York

--

Everyone who has used RLT and has success with this has taken control. You really going to start all this up again?

[hozer2k]

I will not go down that road that you so often love to travel.

Please discuss the topic at hand. Read the post and try to directly address it. Try to use logic and intelligence. Stick to the facts and do not divert please. If you feel my approach is poor, please state why. If you have a better approach, please suggest it.

Guessing and reading are not as solid as direct evidence. Anyone can find articles and blurbs that support either side. This community deserves and needs something better that this. No matter how many blurbs there are, why ignore the direct feedback your body can provide? Why disregard this powerful data point? Why? Why??? How can you discourage others from taking on this very logical approach? This can only help people to understand their individual progress and results. How can this be a bad thing? PLEASE help me understand how this a bad thing, please!

[Twickle Purple]

I will not go down that road that you so often love to travel....Try to use logic and intelligence. How can you discourage others from taking on this very logical approach?

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. No one has ever discouraged a logical approach. Why do you constantly feel the need to put down those that take an approach that you do not agree with. Why? Why???

[Twickle Purple]

Some people will accept what they read as good enough.

Well ya, if you read enough you should be able to make a reasonably intelligent decision. Most all of our knowledge is through the writings of others.

There are different approaches. Some people are more persistant in getting answers.

Yes, they try to find out as much as they can before making a decision (not asking others what to do, and what to use). In this particular case, each person who has tried RLT has an answer, it either works for them or it doesn't.

Doctors are not the end all and be all, and certainly do not a good track record with rosacea.

Again, this doctor has the correct credentials, in all areas, to make these statements.

This particular doctor seems to indicate the usage of "acne rosacea" a couple times, an outdated term.

A petty dismissal of a highly educated and relevant individual.

No studies have been performed.

Again, a huge assumption on your part. Unless of course you have asked him.


Doctors try different things in hopes they may work. Without studies to back them up, they are guessing as well.

Again, quite the assumption, especially given the fellows credentials.


Simply put, I do not agree with the approach of taking what is read and accepting it when you have a greater power yourself to make an informed decision.

Dissapointed others are not being proactive about trying to isolate the efficacy. Easy to do, leads to better decisions. To me, the advantages far outweight the disadvantages.

Even if any particular treatment works for others, it should always be assessed at an individual level. Only you can find out for yourself.

Well, ya. That is why we post our experiences!! Then again, you don't agree with our findings because you don't like our inferior approach.


The point of this is to take control. Ignoring this really makes no sense.

Quite.

[hozer2k]

The original topic is about potentially misunderstanding benefits of RLT, I am not trying to discuss the efficacy of RLT as a whole. I hope that anyone responding to me can please recognize the difference. Having to repeat myself is becoming frustrating. I gave a suggestion on how to potentially remedy this.

************************************************** **********

I just hope other members can consider this:

- Many variables exist that make rosacea difficult to judge on a daily, monthly, yearly basis.
- We can better judge efficacy by directly listening to your bodys reaction and isolating the results.
- There are no studies of RLT on rosacea that we are aware of. Period. Blurbs on the internet can be used as reference, but we do not know if there are financial motives, etc. Much of this is also speculation and I think many of these people might admit that. We have NO studies. Period.
- Everyone is individual. We should consider this and specifically determine how well it is working for each of us. Not even a study can tell you that, certainly not internet blurbs. This is what I mean by "taking control". Take control of whether this is working for you or not. Dont let guess work be your guide.
- Lastly, be informed. There really is no good reason for someone to not have obtain this information. Gaining data points can only help you, so why not obtain this information? I have significantly improved my rosacea by making informed decisions.

************************************************** **********

[Twickle Purple]

Wish you the best success with your treatments H2K.

[fut]

RLT helped me! :wink: :-({|=

[Artist]

Yeah RLT helps me too. After one month I'm seeing good results.

Many months ago I recognized there were no studies so I put off trying it. Eventually, though, I couldn't resist because the feedback from several different people over time was consistently positive. You don't see that very often with rosacea.

Cheers!

Artist

[Twickle Purple]

RLT helped me! :wink: :-({|=

I'm singing the same tune. :D

[Tioh2001]

My results have been nothing short of extraordinary! I just past the 1 year mark of using RLT....one of these days I'll write up a detailed report.

Hozer2k wrote: Guessing and reading are not as solid as direct evidence.

My experience is the only direct evidence I need! I HAVE PROVEN RLT WORKS!

Heather

[redhotoz]

I noticed that people comment that their face appears calm and non-red after using it and not to burst people's bubbles but there maybe a reason why this is so. After the first time I used it - no goggles, just eyes shut - and then went for a walk outside I noticed that the street lamps which were normally orange in hue all had a green/blue tint to it. It faded after about 10-20 minutes. I noticed it now when looking at my clock/radio after a session as well.

I think my LEDs DO calm my face, but your first glance is not accurate..

Hi Liz

Don't worry, my bubble has not been burst! :lol: I also found that when I first started using my red LED array, after a session, my vision had a blue/green tint. As I was sitting infront of the TV just listening with eyes closed, I would then watch what was on TV after I had finished under my lights. It would take about 5 minutes for the blue/green to go back to normal, if that. I didn't jump infront of a mirror. When first starting out with my array, I went by feel. That is, my face felt calmer.

To be honest, I don't believe jumping infront of a mirror after a session is going to prove much. I'm going for the long term thing. Now that I have my lights set up above my bed, I just go to sleep under them. I seem to have this internal body clock thing going on and after about 2 hours, I wake up and turn them off. This is fine for what I am using but I wouldn't suggest this for near-infrared.

Jen

[Artist]

Jen you use RLT for 2 hours a day? How interesting. What made you decide to do that? Do you think it could be too long?

Artist

[Peter]

Peter - I do think redness is reduced, especially after treatment with the LEDs. I also find that the flushing response is moderated somewhat as well, and so I continue using it to help fight this.

I think LEDs are more a preventative treatment - I can't seem them actually being able to destroy visible vessels which is what I have laser treatment for. A combination of diet to improve the seb derm and avoiding triggers to keep the existing vessels from dialating too much and LED therapy to improve texture and keep a further lid on the flushing and I can look very pale some days. Like anything though, it does fluctuate day by day, week by week. I actually think there is a hormonal impact in play as well..

I was thinking of including some yellow LEDs and infrared LEDs as well (with googles) to my existing setup to see if this helps with the seb derm/pimples etc. Any thoughts on combining the three or so colours in the one hit.. does this make them any less effective?


liz

Hello Liz

We have never said RLT is a cure for rosacea but like all the treatments I am aware of, it does seem to be able for some to appear to help stop the progression of the condition and probably in combination with other treatments, has the ability to get you back to near normal again. I know some have very good results with laser treatments but then the blood vessels can grow back again plus it can work out expensive. Personally if you current regime appears to be working then I would stick with it for at least another 4 - 6 months and then review again before experimenting. I have heard yellow light discussed and infra red but I do not know whether including these as well would have additional benefits.

Hopefully in another 6 months more information on the use of RLT will be available and it will be easier to work out what helps who.

I agree with you that there has to be some hormonal connection with rosacea but exactly how this can influence the condition appears to be still unknown.

Good luck

Peter

[Peter]

My results have been nothing short of extraordinary! I just past the 1 year mark of using RLT....one of these days I'll write up a detailed report.

Hozer2k wrote: Guessing and reading are not as solid as direct evidence.

My experience is the only direct evidence I need! I HAVE PROVEN RLT WORKS!

Heather

Hello Heather

Great news that you are still having excellent results and hopefully things will improve even more over the next year. I would really appreciate it if you could post a report here on your experiences when you are able to because it will help others make their own decision whether to give RLT a try.

As you say you have your own proof now how much it helped you and at least you had the courage to take that forward step and give it a go. I am sure you don't regret it now?

Best wishes

Peter

[Artist]

If it helps, I cannot imagine a better option. You are not applying a cream or topical, you are not ingesting it, you are not "zapping" it with downtime afterwards. I wish I had tried it years ago.

It does something to calm my skin. I recently switched to using it in the morning before getting out of bed. So, after my shower and washing my face my skin is still calm. I think it curbs that slight inflammation reaction I sometimes get after my morning routine. Just mornings for some reason. My skin is much more resilient at night.

It did take a while to see lasting results. This past week has been great.

I still have to watch my triggers, of course. I ate too much cheese the other night and woke up with two little spots. Grrrrr. I think if I could have one food back it would be cheese.

Artist

[Peter]

Hello Artist

Glad you are having so much success with RLT. Your skin looked pretty good when you posted up your pictures earlier this year so to get even more improvement is great news. Does your skin feel much more softer to touch than before you used the lamp? Can I ask how long have you been using your lamp and when did you start to notice that it was having a beneficial effect?

Yes I used to love cheese - especially washed down with a nice glass of red wine. You never know one day perhaps we will be able to enjoy again. All round your house for a cheese and wine party :)

Peter

[Artist]

Can you imagine being able to eat anything again? It would be so wonderful! I'd gain ten happy pounds right away. Right now I'm just happy if I can keep the rosacea under control. When it was bad I couldn't even do that no matter how many triggers I avoided.

Let's see. Today is exactly four weeks of use. I started 15 minutes every night, and about a week ago switched to the morning. During the first few weeks I didn't notice much of a lasting difference. Right after using it my skin would feel calm, but overall I was the same. After a week or two I started noticing my skin would be pale right afterwards for closer to an hour maybe. I also noticed I could use it right after washing to calm the skin more quickly in the morning. Now, using it before washing prevents the irritation, so that works out better. In the last week, the effect is more lasting. I'll have to see if this continues. I have been sick with a cold or flu or something, so who knows what effect that has had.

Interesting you ask about skin softness. In the last week I've been able to back down to one drop of Emu oil after washing. I prefer one drop because it soaks in slowly and much more causes a bit of a shine. Usually I need more than one drop, but not lately. Maybe due to RLT...if so I hope it continues.

I use a lamp that has a combination of red and near-infrared lights. I'm going to add yellow light, but maybe I should wait another month in order to see the effects of just the red/near infrared combo. They are all from acnelamp.com. My skin is never warm after. On the contrary - the skin is cooler afterwards. So, the near-infrared I use must not cause heat. I don't know how it becomes cooler, but it does. Maybe the calming effect results in less inflammation and blood flow so the skin cools as it calms.

I added another picture here so you can see. I think I've made some additional progress by adding the RLT.

http://health.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/rosacea-support/photos/browse/f4bd?c=

Cheers!

Artist

[Twickle Purple]

Wow. You are beautiful Artist.
Congratulations on your upcoming addition to your family!

Twickle Purple

[Artist]

Thanks on both counts, Twickle!

Cheers!

Artist

[redhotoz]

Jen you use RLT for 2 hours a day? How interesting. What made you decide to do that? Do you think it could be too long?

Artist

Hi Artist

Well, it wasn't something that I actually planned. With my array now set up above my bed, I simply put it on when I tuck into bed. It puts me to sleep quickly, which is great for me, as I used to have trouble getting to sleep. The down side is waking up about 2 hours later to turn it off. Mind you, I go straight back to sleep, with a calm feeling on my face and all over really.

I have actually found that using it for longer helps more and I have no concerns with the types of LEDs that I am using, that sitting under it for a long period of time will harm me in anyway. It's all good.

Really happy to hear that things are going well with yours too.

Jen

[IowaDavid]

:lol:

Great to see your skin is doing all right!

And CONGRATULATIONS!!!

We all need to find a sash tailor, now, too. ;)

Please post pics of your new addition--hopefully s/he will be utterly pale. :D

[redhotoz]

We all need to find a sash tailor, now, too. ;)

Please post pics of your new addition--hopefully s/he will be utterly pale. :D

:D I would like my sash to read "Want to be Rosacea-free? Just ask me!" I'm talking a future sash! I have a lady who wears a badge at the gym that says "Want to lose weight? Just ask me!" It kind of makes me laugh cos I'm slimmer than her and I need to loose a few kilos!

I would love to see some baby pics too, Artist! Although David, babies are normally pretty red when they are born. I so hope my kids don't develop Rosacea! By the time they are at that age, hopefully I will be well armed with what to do to help them, if it does happen.

Jen

[phlika29]

Hi Artist

Well, it wasn't something that I actually planned. With my array now set up above my bed, I simply put it on when I tuck into bed. It puts me to sleep quickly, which is great for me, as I used to have trouble getting to sleep. The down side is waking up about 2 hours later to turn it off. Mind you, I go straight back to sleep, with a calm feeling on my face and all over really.

I have actually found that using it for longer helps more and I have no concerns with the types of LEDs that I am using, that sitting under it for a long period of time will harm me in anyway. It's all good.

Really happy to hear that things are going well with yours too.

Jen

Jen

What on earth does your partner think lying next to someone glowing red. I just have the funniest picture in my head. :lol:

[Peter]

Hello Artist

Great picture and you look fantastic. Do you think your skin has also improved during your pregnancy?

I started to see results very quickly as well and apart from a reduction in redness the softness of my skin was very evident because prior to using the lamp it had a hard woody feel. I have posted before that I did hear that a famous model apparently used red light to prevent wrinkles and that appears to be another benefit of using RLT.

Like you I use my lamp first thing in the morning but I use it before washing and shaving as I found it easier. As I told Liz previously my advice would be to carry on with your current lamp for several more months before thinking about experimenting. I am a great believer with rosacea that if you find something that obviously works then stick with it rather than try something else that could send you backwards. I am hoping in 2007 that we will learn much more about the benefits of RLT for rosacea and possibly be able to amend our regimes accordingly.

Good luck and keep us posted on RLT and of course the baby.

Peter

[Artist]

Thanks all! I'll most definatly have to post a few pictures of the little guy after he's born. He can have all my genes except the rosacea one ;)

Peter: No, I do not think pregnancy has helped my rosacea. I think it has been a slight trigger at times, mostly because I cannot use oral meds, but also because of the hormone swings, pregnancy "glow", etc. I had to go off my oral antibiotics, beta blocker, and antihistamine for the pregnancy so I was very nervous about how my skin would react. Fortuanately, my IPL treatments, Skinactives, and recent RLT have countered any negative effects or rebound, and then some.

Wise words regarding adding the yellow light. I'll hold out as long as my curiosity allows ;)

Cheers!

Artist

[redhotoz]

Jen

What on earth does your partner think lying next to someone glowing red. I just have the funniest picture in my head. :lol:

:lol: Ah well, I live with my two children, Sarah. My boyfriend has a place of his own. Mind you, I quite often wake up in the morning with one or both of my children in my bed! I'm not a morning person and 5.30am wakes ups are not for me. I have tried to educate my children that the clock has to say 7:00 before we get out of bed. No doubt when they are older, I will be the one dragging them out of bed for school. :lol:

Aside and perhaps a bit naughty...Bob Bear once mentioned the use of a red light bulb to disguise the red face in the bedroom...when...ummm...well...you know what! Haven't tried it yet though. :oops:

Jen

[redhotoz]

I'll most definatly have to post a few pictures of the little guy after he's born. He can have all my genes except the rosacea one ;)

Hi Artist

Ahhhh, so it's a boy! Wish you lived closer so that I could give you some baby things. I too hope your little guy doesn't get the Rosacea gene. Sadly, I think my youngest has it but time will tell. My eldest is like his Dad and my youngest like me. They even have different colour eyes - dark brown and deep blue. Genes are funny things!

Jen

[Artist]

he he Jen very funny with your "well...um...you know what"..ha ha ha!

That would be great to live closer. I don't have any local friends with this blasted condition. Hard for everyone to understand, but they do eventually after hearing me yammer on about it!

I dearly hope this little one doesn't get it. If so, I hope it's very mild. At least I will know how to help him.

Artist

[banshee]

Been awhile since I posted but I thought I'd chime in...

It's true if you do your tx w/o goggles you will see green for awhile because of the red/green receptors being on the same cones in the eye. However, I've found that to be a very brief response (btw don't do goggleless infrared w700+nm or flourescent as it can cause snowblindness of sorts).

Red light is anti-inflammatory in nature which can also attribute for the epidermal calming post tx. The exact mechanism of action is that the hemoglobin (red in color) in the blood vessels absorbs the red photons since in photobiology a wavelength is absorbed by the "system" which it mimics. This causes the vessel to in essence constrict for awhile in a manner similar to having taken aspirin. I've noticed in my txs, it takes about 20 min for this to kick in.

Red light can signal blood vessel repair & replacement. It is low level light therapy (LLLT) & the joules pr cm2 is not considered "thermally damaging". It works by causing a biological chain of events on the cellular level w/o causing injury to the bv or any surrounding tissues. With lasers/IPL they are high powered high energy devices. They damage the structure-i.e. blood vessels just enough to signal repair. The trade off is with lasers they have a faster result but longer healing period. Whereas LLLT requires cumulative build up of photons over months/years (akin to needing to lay out many days for a tan as a loose analogy) in order to get a substantial result. Perhaps a good comparison between these 2 forms of therapy would be there's more than one way to cook a potato & accomplish the same goal of structurally changing it-you can
slow boil it or fry it.

Imo, when someone has a severe condition, the LLLT will not outstride the progression of the disease. Meaning it's like trying to plug the leak in a dam with bubble gum. Thus lasers would be more helpful in at least halting progression of the disease while adding LED as an adjunct to prevent/slow degradation. Someone who is milder may be able to use the lamps alone to control their condition. It's long been a theory of mine Infrared LED would more efficacious for ppl w/more severe R. But it none the less all takes time.

As a footnote too, LLLT does not necessarily=LED. It's a term also used for using lasers on low settings. But lasers regardless of their settings are still thermal/high energy devices.

These are just my opinions & what I've researched over the years as well as garnered from my experiences. I have been doing YAG laser & at home acne lamps for 4 years now & have seen improvement. I support both types of treatments.

HTH someone :)

[Twickle Purple]

Been awhile since I posted but I thought I'd chime in...

It's true if you do your tx w/o goggles you will see green for awhile because of the red/green receptors being on the same cones in the eye. However, I've found that to be a very brief response (btw don't do goggleless infrared w700+nm or flourescent as it can cause snowblindness of sorts).

Red light is anti-inflammatory in nature which can also attribute for the epidermal calming post tx. The exact mechanism of action is that the hemoglobin (red in color) in the blood vessels absorbs the red photons since in photobiology a wavelength is absorbed by the "system" which it mimics. This causes the vessel to in essence constrict for awhile in a manner similar to having taken aspirin. I've noticed in my txs, it takes about 20 min for this to kick in.

Red light can signal blood vessel repair & replacement. It is low level light therapy (LLLT) & the joules pr cm2 is not considered "thermally damaging". It works by causing a biological chain of events on the cellular level w/o causing injury to the bv or any surrounding tissues. With lasers/IPL they are high powered high energy devices. They damage the structure-i.e. blood vessels just enough to signal repair. The trade off is with lasers they have a faster result but longer healing period. Whereas LLLT requires cumulative build up of photons over months/years (akin to needing to lay out many days for a tan as a loose analogy) in order to get a substantial result. Perhaps a good comparison between these 2 forms of therapy would be there's more than one way to cook a potato & accomplish the same goal of structurally changing it-you can
slow boil it or fry it.

Imo, when someone has a severe condition, the LLLT will not outstride the progression of the disease. Meaning it's like trying to plug the leak in a dam with bubble gum. Thus lasers would be more helpful in at least halting progression of the disease while adding LED as an adjunct to prevent/slow degradation. Someone who is milder may be able to use the lamps alone to control their condition. It's long been a theory of mine Infrared LED would more efficacious for ppl w/more severe R. But it none the less all takes time.

As a footnote too, LLLT does not necessarily=LED. It's a term also used for using lasers on low settings. But lasers regardless of their settings are still thermal/high energy devices.

These are just my opinions & what I've researched over the years as well as garnered from my experiences. I have been doing YAG laser & at home acne lamps for 4 years now & have seen improvement. I support both types of treatments.

HTH someone :)


Great post Banshee.

Very informative. I always learn alot from you.

Twickle Purple

[banshee]

Great post Banshee.

Very informative. I always learn alot from you.

Twickle PurpleThanks Twicks :)

I should make a slight correction that red/green cones are coupled together. That's why folks get red/green color blindness.

[Twickle Purple]

My son has this. The eye doc says he got it from me, even though I don't have it. Guess it's passed from the maternal side??

[Artist]

This causes the vessel to in essence constrict for awhile in a manner similar to having taken aspirin. I've noticed in my txs, it takes about 20 min for this to kick in.


Banshee this is great information. It makes sense becuase not only do I see overall, steady improvement, but I have found I can use the RLT just before doing something that normally causes a reaction - like a warm shower, washing face, out for a big meal, etc. I'll continue experimenting and giving feedback. Thanks for your excellent thoughts!

Cheers!

Artist

[YankeesRtheBest]

Hey Dave, where can you buy the Opaque tanning goggles? Thanks man. -Chris

PS- Red light has been a Godsend for me. I experience that calm effect after using the red light, I see no redness in my cheeks and then it will slowly come back a little, but never as much a sit used to. The great thing is that my flushing epidodes are minimal to non-existant. I've been using red light since the beginning of June and I recommend it to everyone with rosacea. In my opinion, it is the best thing out there for us to use every day in our homes to stop the flushing of rosacea and significantly lessen permanent redness. -Chris

[DukeCity]

Chris - Good to see you post again, I was wondering how you're doing. How are your eyes doing, any relief?? -- any plans on IPL/Laser in the future for you??

[KHM]

Just to throw this out for feedback

I am considering RLT as the next step ( I have made hugh progress with IPL/YAG1064 and Vbeam and the skinactives, plus some supplements and Singulair)

My derm actually has an interest in this stuff, and has built his own medical grade device for wound healing help with some of his skin patients.

He warned me about using the device for too long - something about actually reversing the effects. That is NOT what I hear from this group, so I have started a bit of reading and thinking.

On thing I noticed is his device is at a higher power level than ones we typically seem to use (David sent me his build instructions).

Some of my reading indicated that the higher powers actually "force" the cellular reaction and it seems he is right - the literature indicates that too long (much past 10-15 minutes) would reverse the effects.

The lower power units seem to "encourage" the changes and leave the cells in the body more in control. Perhaps this is why cumulative seems to work so well for most on this board.

Anyway, I am just starting to read, my physics is rusty, and this is not exactly my area of expertise, so I would love to hear thoughts from some of you who have spent a long time studying and playing with this.

I am smack in the middle of a house remodel, but once all that excitment is done, I have a soldering iron and know how to use it, so I need to consider if I wnat to get busy and build one.

PS - I did try a fluroescent model and it flared me, so I think it must me LED for me.

KHM

[DukeCity]

KHM - What's the price estimate for a 'build it yourself" unit?? - any idea yet?

[KHM]

I have not priced it out yet - no info to offer

[Artist]

I'd be afraid to build one myself but I bet it's a lot less expensive than buying one. -Artist

[Twickle Purple]

Someone mentioned red christmas LED lights. :-k

[Artist]

Would be great if it's true. Do we know? Seems unlikely but I have no idea. I'd be afraid to try unless really sure.

Hmmm...I wonder if I still have the red pegs from my childhood lite-brite. Remember those? Maybe they would work.. he he he!

Artist

[IowaDavid]

I'd be afraid to build one myself but I bet it's a lot less expensive than buying one. -Artist



It's easy and if one does some reading, one shouldn't be afraid. ;)

[YankeesRtheBest]

Hey Dukecity and all, sorry I didn't reply back sooner..I just finished a whole semester of student teaching, and I'm so glad it's winter break. I graduate in May 07. Anyways... yes, like i said red light has been a Godsend for me. My results were so good that I actually forgot I had rosacea and stopped using the red light every day. It was the BEST feeling in the world, but then I started to flush again after a couple weeks. So for me, I have to keep up with it. If you miss a day or two once in a while, it's not crucial. I find a half hour daily is good. I haven't used it more than that.

I don't plan on getting IPl treatments in teh very near future, however in the next couple years I would like to visit Dr. Nase's institute in Texas because I have a good amount of broken blood vessels I'd like to get rid of. (red light therapy obviously can't help that) I would also like to get treated for my ocular rosacea there...the institute has a regimine specifically for ocular rosacea which is very exciting.

Staying on the topica of eyes...my eyes have been better, I've been using ocusoft lid scrib with very warm soaks at least every morning and at night when I can. I also use theratears omega 3 suppement evry day. These things have helped calm my eyes down a lot. I stopped dusing restasis and I use theratears liquid gel sometimes when my eyes get really dry. I find that if I use a lot of diffrent drops my eyes get more irritated.

Have a great holiday everyone. -Chris

[Peter]

Hello Chris

Great to hear you have had so much success using red light. Even now after 8 years I am still using it daily as it has become part of my routine but I can miss a week now and not have any deterioration. It has very pleasing for me to read on both forums the success stories of RLT that filter through and no bad experiences that I have been aware of. Hope you continue to find that RLT keeps your rosacea under control.

By the way this is what Nase wrote to me and David about RLT after he got himself banned from here earlier this year:

"I have stood up to Dr. Soldo selling himself on these sites and now David and Peter selling their dangerous machines. I have been setting up the forums and blogs for the right information to be released. All of your recent information pertains to the LED and LLT treatments that are the newest snake oil gadgets that are hurting some rosacea sufferers. Shame on you. I only stand firm when I see rosacea sufferers being taken advantage of".

Of course he is the expert on these things - well so he told us.

Dr Nase's Institute in Texas? I don't think so. It appears to be a Medical Centre run by an ETS surgeon with Nase sitting at home in Indiana doing his referrals and no doubt picking up commission. Remember the famous Oregon Institute he had planned and what a farce that was, so just be careful before you part with any of your money.

Enjoy your Xmas

Peter

[Miki]

my face always feels and looks calm when i get that late afertnoon/early evening sun on my face.