LED Choices

[hozer2k]

With many products to choose from, I need some help.

First, should we get red only?

I was looking at this one and while its more expensive than others, I dont mind to pay for the ease of use. Would this fit my needs?

http://www.acnelamp.com/product.php?id=1002

As far as size goes,this may be smaller...but if it works I can always upgrade and it is money well spent.

From their website I found this in the FAQ...I am certainly light sensitive.

7. Will I Get a Sunburn or Skin Cancer?
The peak wavelengths of light used in the Acnelamp are outside those that may cause damage to the skin. Persons hypersensitive to any amount of light should not use this product.

[Twickle Purple]

Persons hypersensitive to any amount of light should not use this product.

This is very important and applies to both the fluorescent and LED models.

--

You can find units that are all blue, all red, blue + red, and red + near infrared. Loosely speaking, blue is for acne, the red is for inflammation and the near infrared penetrates deeper into the tissue than the red.

My face skin type is dry and I'm very prone to flushing with minor P+P and lots of telangiectasia. I do not have acne and because the P+P and acne are so different so I didn’t consider the blue for my skin.

I know that Peter, who uses the Dermalux, started with a Blue + Red unit but eventually switched to all red.

I have read posts here by members that have used the Red+Near-Infrared and have been very pleased with the results.

I use the 660nm (red) on my face. I do not use the pulsing, I tried the pulsing option twice on my face and didn’t like, I can’t really explain why. Maybe I’ll try it again in the future.

I have the red+near-infrared panels but have not tried it yet. I’m going one step at a time.

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LINKS to sellers some consumer, some professional:

* AcneLamp (http://www.acnelamp.com)

* Elixa (http://www.elixa.com/light/arrays.htm)

* The LED MAN (http://www.theledman.net/)

* Dermalux (http://www.dermalux.co.uk/index.htm)

* Dimalux (http://www.dimalux.com/) (not to be confused with Dermalux)

* Warp Light Therapy (for interest and background only, this is not a photo facial product. (http://www.warplighttherapy.com/)

* OmniLux (http://www.phototherapeutics.com/)

* PhotoSkinCare (http://photoskincare.com/science.htm)

* OmniLight (http://www.omnilightled.com/)

* Omega (http://www.omegalaser.co.uk/laser.html)

* Bioflex (http://www.meditech-bioflex.com/bioflex.html)

And, there’s always eBay

--

LINKS to information about LED therapy in general:

* Here’s a site with a whole lot of links of LED therapy in general, (http://www.acnesystem.com/references.html)

* and here’s a bit more on LLLT, (http://www.ledresearch.net/photobasis/photobasis.htm)

* and here, (http://www.rj-laser.com/english/e_forschung.html)

* and here, (http://www.laser.nu/lllt/lllt_science3.htm)

* and here (http://www.mcw.edu/whelan/)

* and here, (http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/Spinoff2005/hm_1.html)

* and here. (http://healingtools.tripod.com/BLT.html)

[hozer2k]

Generally speaking, is the efficacy of the products the same and its just a matter of convience at that point?

If that is the case, would a smaller cost effective unit be a good choice to see if you respond well? This is my thought, but I want to make sure its still a good unit.

THe $250 acne lamp seems easy to use and priced a little high, but still reasonable considering I spent $2500 on my recent IPL treatments.

P.S. I meant sunlight...I dont have a problem with articficial light, so maybe its OK.

[GJ]

If that is the case, would a smaller cost effective unit be a good choice to see if you respond well? This is my thought, but I want to make sure its still a good unit.


That would be my thought too. Red light is red light is red light (within reason).

I would only add that you might want to ensure that the device or approach you choose enables you to bathe your face in light without undue difficulty. Holding some lumpy array about the face for a quarter of an hour or so is enough to render a fellow red-faced with impatience.

[Twickle Purple]

P.S. I meant sunlight...I dont have a problem with articficial light, so maybe its OK.

I got that. But, it's an important caution to folks that are sensitive to light, whether it be sunlight, flourescent lights, or what have you. These units are not suitable for those people.

Generally speaking, is the efficacy of the products the same and its just a matter of convience at that point?

If that is the case, would a smaller cost effective unit be a good choice to see if you respond well? This is my thought, but I want to make sure its still a good unit.

THe $250 acne lamp seems easy to use and priced a little high, but still reasonable considering I spent $2500 on my recent IPL treatments.

I can't really comment from experience because I bought such a monster right out of the gate so I don't know what it's like to do smaller areas. But from the PMs and posts I've read it seems that folks are happy with the smaller units. The complaint being time and tediousness of application. This is why some who start with the acnelamp one head unit eventually buy the three head version.

Some posters have compained that the $250 was very expensive and it didn't work for them. It is a lot of money, and you have put it into perspective with regards to cash outlay for other treatments. My comment on the ones that have said it didn't work is that I noted they didn't use it for very long and they didn't use it consistently.

This investment is two-fold: time + money.

I hope that helps.

Twickle Purple

[hozer2k]

Ultimately if the RLT works...then the price for a larger unit is not a big deal. But it seems logical to test it out with a minimal investment in case it turns out to be a dud or you have a reaction. In fact, I think its better in other aspects as well. I will use it on just one side of the face so that I can compare it to the untreated side.

Arent a lot of people with rosacea light sensitive? So this seems to be somewhat contradictory to our condition.

In any case, I am going to keep my fingers crossed.

[fut]

great post twickle.

[Twickle Purple]

Thanks fut :D there's enough there to keep us all reading for a good while!

Arent a lot of people with rosacea light sensitive? So this seems to be somewhat contradictory to our condition.

I believe so. I know that I am very light sensitive, to sunlight. I feel scorched by the slightest exposure and it was made worse by the Doxycyline.

Light is full spectrum, the therapy we are discussing are with individual spectrums.

Red and Near Infrared have no UV. I believe that this is what most people are sensitive to. The caution that I repeated was for the folks who have immunological conditions causing photosensitivity.

[hozer2k]

TP: Since you seem pretty familiar with the products and want something right out of the box like me...would you think the all red single acne lamp is a good choice for what I want to do then?

If this does even half of what the claims are (heck even a quarter) then it would be worth it to me. I am surprised we dont have more people trying it.

[Twickle Purple]

I think a lot of folks use it, they just aren't here on this forum. I can't really make a recommendation, I can just share everything I know, or if you lived on Vancouver Island, I could let you use my machine to see how it works for you. :D

I think there are 3 things to consider when purchasing a unit: spectrum, convenience, cost/value

SPECTRUM

Decide which spectrum is best suited to your needs.

CONVENIENCE

Consider your sessions and how, where and when you will be using the unit. At night, in bed, a hand held unit can rest on your pillow and you can position your head and face according to the area you want coverage. If you want to use it during the day, let's say when you are at your desk or in front your computer, then the unit with a stand is best because you can just position it and keep focused on your tasks at hand (as long as you stay still.) I've set my units up in a room with a table that I lay on during my sessions. I make the room very dark so the light is focused and I get no other spectrum interference.

COST/VALUE

How many lights can you afford? Which unit gives you the most lights/output/dose for your money and still meets your other criteria?

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I hope all this helps. Sorry for not answering your question directly.

Twickle Purple

[Twickle Purple]

There's a couple LED threads going on. I've posted this in the other but will include it here as well.

--

Here's a link to the PDF (http://www.miinews.com/pdf/PTL-1105.pdf) of an article, parts of it I've copies in below

New Uses Emerge for
Light-Emitting Diode Technology

LED therapy is effective, non-invasive, painless, free of side
effects, easy to apply, and well tolerated by all ages and
all types of patients,” Dr. Calderhead said. “I think that
LED therapy is the medicine of the new millennium.”

---

The scientific literature demonstrates that infrared light penetrates tissue more effectively than visible light,” Dr. Calderhead added. “Intensity is also important, and LEDs are ideal in this regard. LED therapy is effective, non-invasive, painless, free of side effects, easy to apply, and well tolerated by all ages and all types of patients,” Dr. Calderhead said. “I think that LED therapy is the medicine of the new millennium.”

...

Alternating red (633 nm) and blue LED light (415 nm) in a series of eight sessions shows promising results in the treatment of mild to severe acne, according to Tony Chu, M.D., consultant dermatologist, substituting presenter for Bruce Russell, M.D. “Dr. Russell showed that LED red-blue therapy gave significantly better results than blue light, oral antibiotics, and topical therapy,” Dr. Chu said. “Results with the LED included 81% reduction in lesion count at 12 weeks and marked reduction in pore size, with no damage to the sebaceous gland.” Dr. Chu is head of dermatology at Hammersmith Hospital in London. According to Dr. Chu, Propionibacterium acnes absorbs blue light, which reacts with intracellular coproporphyrin III to produce singlet oxygen which destroys only bacteria and not the surrounding tissue. “The rationale behind using red and blue light is that red light has been used for many years to accelerate healing in chronic leg ulcers and non-healing lesions,” Dr. Chu said. “It is thought to have an anti-inflammatory effect and to work via cytokine induction.” How red and blue light is used alternately reduces sebum excretion and post treatment flare-up needs to be further investigated, he added.

...

“Initial clinical results suggest that the Omnilux LED system from PhotoTherapeutics, Inc. (Lake Forest, Calif., and Manchester, U.K.) will have a pivotal role in pain management,” according to R. Glen Calderhead, M.Sc., Ph.D., F.R.S.M. “Studies show that the pain transmission process can be attenuated by phototherapy,” said Dr. Calderhead. “The 830 nm light activates production of endorphins and blocks pain transmitting chemicals, causing non-narcotic analgesia. Recent studies have proven the efficacy of this wavelength in the management of sports and muscle injuries.

[Twickle Purple]

Where I have used Spectrum previously, substitute Wavelength, and you'll have it right ;)

Photorejuvenation and Light Wavelengths (http://photoskincare.com/Photorejuvenation%20Information.htm)

http://www.anniroc.com/TP/Spectrum.jpg

White light or day light is made up of a spectrum of various waves of light. These waves are visible and invisible, ranging from violet and blue to red and infrared.

The waves are described in nanometers (nm) such at 450 nanometers blue or 750 nanometers infrared.

RED and INFRARED - The power of red/infrared LED devices is largely limited to current LED technology. Devices with LED's in the 625-630 nm range are inherently brighter than LED's in the 650-680 nm range.

VIOLET/BLUE/GREEN - These wavelengths are now used in the treatment of acne. Clinical trials have show conclusively that the action of blue/green light kills P. acne bacteria.

YELLOW/AMBER - Several manufacturers have elected to offer light wands in these wavelengths as an alternative to red/infrared or other skin related conditions (improving lymphatic drainage).

[hozer2k]

Interesting...far as I know Dr. Chu is a well respected doctor. I have heard a lot about him over the last several years.

Has anyone investigated the blue light? Is that OK for rosacea?

[Twickle Purple]

I was told that the blue light can aggravate Rosacea by the fellow at Dermalux. It turns out that may not be the case though. I have read here of one user (fut) that uses it and finds it beneficial, and not aggravating at all.

A 'net search will likely give you more details on that.

Peter has posted that Dr. Chu is planning on conducting a study with RLT. Check out his thread: Red Light Clinical Trial at Hammersmith Hospital (http://forum.rosaceagroup.org/viewtopic.php?t=3687&highlight=chu)

[porcorosso]

thread hijacking 8) Been using red light for a month and a half, 30-45 mins daily, very close to the panels...

Seems to work!

I'm still red but all my symptoms are reduced and I don't flush as easily, not sure how much more room for improvement there is tho... I was worried at first that being too close would make things worse (it seemed to be the case as I had small patches that became redder but eventually they settle down). After 45 mins the leds are only slightly warm plus I use a fan. It's really annoying to use tho... have to lay down on the floor without being able to do much. but another plus is that I'm also considering dropping clonidine!

I had 10 IPLs sessions last year, no doubt that this is by far the quickest way to improve one's redness, but flushing persists... plus it's a freaking pain and bloody expensive too.

No idea if RLT can help you if you're severely red but with IPL it's a killer combo. I wish I'd known about it when I was doing IPL.

So where did I get mine ? from IowaDavid... I can't thank you enough man, without your reports on your own experience I wouldn't have bothered with it...
It's not exactly a professionally build unit :lol: and I had to solder a few bits several times but the price was fair... you could setup a business if you improved the finishing :D, props to you!

[Twickle Purple]

:lol: I think I would have begged IowaDavid to build me one if I thought he would do it! He's got a really good set of instructions and is there to help in any (other) way though. Cheers and thanks to IowaDavid. Hip hip!!

Ya, the boredom factor is there during the sessions. I think this is why some folks don't stick with it. I keep my iPod handy. Pop it into an external speaker unit (Bose, very handy with a remote) and the time passes quicker.

[sarah]

hi thanks for the info Twickle Purple,

Im very interesed in trying this, my main problem is flushing as well as burning senstaions my skin is not red all the time only gets it when i flush so i hope to find a LED soon as winter is coming and my skin is definley getting worse.

I had 3 ipl treatments which made my skin worse im hoping i will be able to tolerate the LED light, im unsure what will be best for me if it will be all red or red and near infrared as i heard that is better for people who cant tolerate flurscent lights,though to be honest i could be totally wrong about that cant even remeber where i heard it. I would say when im under those kind of lights i do start to flush, does anyone else find that?

Would it be better to start with a hand held then do a unit first my flush zone is mainly cheeks and nose.Has anyone found there LED devvices to cuase heat from them or be more red or flushed after?

What sort of LED would you think be good for my skin i have these to links yet i dont have acne the acne lamp mainly talks about helping acne so i dont know what one to try for best or to go with just red or mainly nfared and some red.

These are the links i have
http://www.lighttherapyproducts.com/LEDtechnology.html

some info on it -http://www.light4beauty.com/faq.html

or the acne lamp http://www.acnelamp.com/ yet i dont have acne

Any help on this i would be grateful too

Thanks, sarah

[fut]

i use the red and blue acne lamp and actually I do not really waste time with sessions now. I just hold the light to my face and go on my laptop while the light is working its magic.

[Twickle Purple]

Hi Sarah,

The decision of what wavelength to use comes down to personal choice based on need. I have no acne, just flushing and minor P+P, so I went with the 660nm wavelength. I had read enough on the combo of 660nm+880nm that I knew I would want to try this too, but not right away.

The RLT does not remove my telangiectasia, for that I have Gemini done at my Derms. This has a traumatic effect on my face for a few days but is worth it for the good results I've seen so far. So I have laser (Gemini) and use RLT. While I'm really swollen from the Gemini I have not used the RLT. Once it started to subside though I was right back on it. I've posted this under my Gemini Tx thread under photos. I also use MetroCream and was on a 3 month course of doxycyline which I've just ended.

I tried to include as much as I could for links to all the manufacturers that I'd come across so far (there are probably lots more) and the Web sites that I'd found and read on this 'technology' before I made my decision.

I use different units than other members from what I've read posted so far. It seems that the most popular are Elixa (LED), Dermalux (flourescent tubes), AcneLamp (LED), and home built. I've talked about the ones that I have in their own links. The big Dimalux is really good and it is also the best demonstration that these babies don't burn. The smaller unit that I'm using has a programmable console and a couple different applicator types (single LED and multi-LED heads). So both require a more or less dedicated set-up.

I hope that helps.
Twickle Purple

[GJ]

What are you finding, Fut?

[banshee]

hi thanks for the info Twickle Purple,

Im very interesed in trying this, my main problem is flushing as well as burning senstaions my skin is not red all the time only gets it when i flush so i hope to find a LED soon as winter is coming and my skin is definley getting worse.

I had 3 ipl treatments which made my skin worse im hoping i will be able to tolerate the LED light, im unsure what will be best for me if it will be all red or red and near infrared as i heard that is better for people who cant tolerate flurscent lights,though to be honest i could be totally wrong about that cant even remeber where i heard it. I would say when im under those kind of lights i do start to flush, does anyone else find that?

Would it be better to start with a hand held then do a unit first my flush zone is mainly cheeks and nose.Has anyone found there LED devvices to cuase heat from them or be more red or flushed after?

What sort of LED would you think be good for my skin i have these to links yet i dont have acne the acne lamp mainly talks about helping acne so i dont know what one to try for best or to go with just red or mainly nfared and some red.

These are the links i have
http://www.lighttherapyproducts.com/LEDtechnology.html

some info on it -http://www.light4beauty.com/faq.html

or the acne lamp http://www.acnelamp.com/ yet i dont have acne

Any help on this i would be grateful too

Thanks, sarahHey sarah-

To be honest I think flashing the skin or doing a small area isn't worth it. LED is extremely low level therapy (less than a joule pr cm2 a min vs. the 30j's in a millisecond of a laser). So you're better off imo just getting a standard unit to do a 15 min tx. LED's effects are slow acting & cumulative. It takes several weeks to begin to build up enough biological effect. In addition flashing has a different mechanism of action on cells than continuous light. All LED's flash-it's how they deliver light, we just can't perceive it turned up to a certain level. It's my feeling the continuous is what is most efficacious for Rosacea.

In terms of what you need my theory has always been visible red (600-700nm) would be sufficient for milder to moderate cases whereas infrared would work better for severe cases. Both is ideal since the light addresses different levels of blood vessels.

A word about infrared...I've been meaning to try it for years now but what has held me back is adequate eye protection. Some don't believe you need it, but personally I don't think it's good to expose the retina to it. The metal goggles still let some visible in around the edges therefore would allow IR too. There's stick on IPL/laser eye patches now which may be a great adjunct to the metal ones for maximum safety.

there was a q back there about post tx flushing....It is normal after a LED. This is not a flare vs transient while the photons get absorbed. I've had 38 YAGS now & imo it's analogous to the 4-5 week kick up in symptoms I have before benefit is seen. I've had days my face was furious & sitting 20 min in front of my lamp calmed it better than had I not.

Good post Twickle....that Nanometer chart is a bit off it would seem because visble red begins at 600nm.

Just to clarify for those who may be confused "near" infrared is invisible ~800-1064nm. I've seen several sites & docs use the terms near infrared/visible red interchangably when they are 2 different animals.

I started w/P&P's & skin hardening as my first symptom. Since using the lamps my skin is flat & had very low incidence of P&P's.

The rule of thumb w/LED light tx is patience & I think ppl give up on it too soon or get scared off by it.

HTH someone!

[Twickle Purple]

[quote=sarah]that Nanometer chart seems a bit off though because visble red begins at 600nm.

I found it on the 'net. I shall photoshop it into correctness!

The eye protection has been a concern for me with the 660nm+880nm. The Dimalux (sounds so close to Dermalux I find myself typing that at times...) unit came with the metal goggles and I used them a few times with the 660nm panels but eventually read enough saying the 660nm isn't an eye sight threat that I forewent them altogether. Sometimes I catch myself looking about while the lights are on before I register that I've got my eyes open!

The Derm's office covers my eyes with cotton pads then the same goggles I have when I have the Gemini treatment. But, I still see the flashes when they're working around my nose bridge or brows.

I purchased some eye shape cotton pads, I'll be certain to protect my eyes as much as I can when I begin using the 660nm+880nm panels.

[fut]

What are you finding, Fut?

Eliminated my burning sesnations, i'm lesss reastive and base redness has decreased somewhat.

Not a cure but definately worth it in my opinion.

[GJ]

Great stuff.
Very glad to hear it.

[Twickle Purple]

that Nanometer chart seems a bit off though because visble red begins at 600nm.

I found it on the 'net. I shall photoshop it into correctness!


Ha, easier said than done. Most images that I sourced seem to leave a bit of wiggle room in the numbers. So I've updated the image to be a bit more general.

[banshee]

that Nanometer chart seems a bit off though because visble red begins at 600nm.

I found it on the 'net. I shall photoshop it into correctness!


Ha, easier said than done. Most images that I sourced seem to leave a bit of wiggle room in the numbers. So I've updated the image to be a bit more general.very kind of you :) I just looked at the chart briefly & noticed.

[IowaDavid]

LEDs, when used for LLLT, are measured in microjoules/cm2--on the order of a millionth of the energy used for thermal laser devices like IPL or YAG. It's just a totally different action, and incredibly gentle. Sunlight is far more damaging than any red light therapy.

[hozer2k]

I ordeded the acne lamp, red only, single head unit. I may or may not try it on the face right away since I am finishing my last IPL session soon. But I plan on trying it on my neck and chest where I have some redness to see how it goes. I will give it a fair shot over the next few months and am keeping my fingers crossed.

[Twickle Purple]

I wish you great success with it!

TP

[Twickle Purple]

3 more sellers:

http://www.lighttherapyproducts.com/LEDtechnology.html

http://www.dpltherapy.com/45694.html

http://www.androv-medical.com/product.php/22/1/

[sarah]

hi thank you for clearing up some of my questions about LED its really helped and hearing peoples experiences from using Led, im going order at the end of this month when i get paid an all red Led Unit im going to see how i get on with then may go to near infared and some red.please anyone else whos trying LED for flushing and burning but not permaent redness let me know of how they are getting on or any other info on LED

Thanks Sarah

[Twickle Purple]

Let us know which one you choose could you?
Wishing you good health and great skin!
Twickle Purple

[FUredness]

Hey, I also ordered the all red single head unit from acnelamp last week. It came in yesterday, but it doesnt work correctly. At first it didnt work at all, but I played around with it a little, and now I can get it to work at least some of the time. If I hold it in the air, all 70 led's light up fine, but when i put it down on the desk, they all turn off. I have tried taking off the face and putting it back in numerous times, but it doesnt help. $250 and it doesnt even work. I sent them an email today about getting this one fixed or getting another one. I'll let you know what they say. I just wanted to post this so people can take it into account before ordering. Hopefully they will send me another one free of charge.
Paul

Ok, they called a little bit after I posted this. They said they would send me another one. He wasnt sure why this one isnt working correctly, but he said they would take it back. Hopefully the next one works right.

[RedHotCanuck]

Are any of you LED users taking progression photos while trying this?

[Steve95301]

Are any of you LED users taking progression photos while trying this?

Yes, please do this, it would be very helpful to the rest of us.

[sarah]

Hey FUredness
Thanks for posting about your experience with yours, sorry to hear its not working i hope u get it sorted out , im unsure about ordering from them now im glad u did post as im thinking of getting one from them my main syptoms are only flushing though what are yours?

Yes please do let us all know what happens with it,

Thanks Sarah

[FUredness]

Hey Sarah, Im not necesarily saying this is a bad place to order from, I just wanted to post my experience. They called me back about 15 minutes after I sent them an email. They said they would send me a new one free of charge. They seem like nice people, it could just be an isolated incident. I know other people on this site have said they ordered from them. I will post when I get the new one. Probably wont get it till Wednesday or thursday.
As for my symptoms, I have a constant baseline redness, especially on my nose. I also have flushing to heat and social situations mostly.
Paul

[hozer2k]

I am supposed to get mine tomorrow and I will post over the weekend if there are any problems. Will be starting it soon, seems like more people are trying it out...we should get a better feel about how well it works in the coming months.

[sarah]

Hi FUredness, Glad to hear they are sending a new one out and they seemed quick in getting back to you after your email, plese do let me know how you get on with your new one and hozer2k if you could post how you find yours too any info would be great from you both.
Sarah

[hozer2k]

I just picked mine up and works fine. The quality of the units seems to be pretty good. Stable base and the flexible rod seems of good quality. The documentation is pretty cheesey. I didnt realize how bright it would get, definately need the googles. I am trying out the chest first anyway so its pretty easy to just put it front and type (as we speak). It seems to be more expensive than most units, but the convience was worth it to me. Well so far so good. Now lets see if this thing works.

[hozer2k]

FYI, I noticed that at the 2" distance from the lamp, the spot size is quite small. I am using a mirror to see where it actually going. I can see why you would need a panel or multiple heads to really do the trick, but this is for testing purposes anyway. If I see its working then I will step up to something bigger and badder.

[sarah]

wow you have got ur lamp quickly, good idea to try it on your chest first, please keep me updated over the next few days on how your getting on with it and when you have tried it on your face, either pm me or write it on here

Sarah

[Krisco]

How far from the face should I place a homemade LED? I'm going to try it out tonight.

[hozer2k]

Supposedly 2-6" from the face for 15-20 min once or twice a day.

[Twickle Purple]

A quote from this PDF (http://miinews.com/pdf/1004_current_led.pdf):

...Dr. Lees said. “The main thing I’ve observed with LED in general is a big difference in diffuse redness. Rosacea patients, for example, do very well with LED because it really helps with the redness. I’ve seen a difference with the Revitalight after only one treatment.”

I recommend downloading and reading the PDF.

--------------

And here's a quote from this Web site (http://www.lasernews.net/lasernews/lasernewsv3.nsf/0/88505480d370a2ae85256d280069086c?OpenDocument&Click=), to give you an idea of how LED therapy is gaining the attention of manufacturers and the medical profession, and where LED therapy may go:

LEDs are "one of the most thrilling and diverse new light technologies to emerge. It stimulates the body's natural biochemical pathways to treat a range of diseases," D'Arcy said. "We envisage that new treatment regimes will be introduced, and that several exciting corporate partnerships will be formed. Our company is committed to the total understanding of light therapy - satisfying the doctor's quest for understanding the mechanisms involved in the process and enabling us to offer superior combination treatment protocols. And LEDs are not necessarily restricted to the dermatology market. There are exciting opportunities for light treatment in such areas as gynecology, ENT, and gastroenterology."

[FUredness]

Hey, just wanted to say that I got my new lamp today, and that it works fine this time. I will post my experiences with it.

[Twickle Purple]

Right on. I look forward to reading about your experiences. Start slow and see how you react. It has been mentioned by a few long-time users that there is a brief flushing period. I was told this by Dimalux too. I get it in the first 10 minutes and then it passes. But my face is completely covered with that array so I can't see what it looks like. Today I did my tummy (I have eczema and tried it on that) with a 660/880 LED array and it was very red afterwards. I used the array on high, which I was told not to do if it touches the skin.:oops: Within a couple of hours the skin was calm and a lot of my rash had dissipated.

Good luck, and great skin!
Twickle Purple

[Twickle Purple]

Here are some links to additional info found in Yahoo! groups, provided to me by V, the LEDMAN (http://theledman.net/).

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/LEDeffects/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/hfnetwork/

------

Some more manufacturers:

Some good reading, this site shows treatment times for specific conditions (near the end) Rosacea included:

Here's http://www.winhealth.co.uk/PalmLaser.htm

And here's another:

http://www.winhealth.co.uk/Softlaser.htm

This site is geared to veterinarians, as they have been using this since the early 70s. Anyone interested in LLLT should read articles regarding this usage, this is akin to animals 'trials' and has the most information. It also references human studies.

http://www.emersonww.com/LaserFAQs.htm

An excerpt:

Q. Are there any negative effects from LLLT?

A. In all the years that low level lasers have been tested in research and clinical applications, no adverse side effects or negative impacts have been reported. This is why the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) classifies lasers like the Respond Laser Therapy Systems as “Non-Significant Risk” devices, requiring a minimum of safety precautions. The only precaution is that which discourages direct viewing of the laser beam. Care should be exercised not to stare into the laser beam or to point it at the eyes, and the use of safety glasses is recommended.

Q. How long have low level lasers been used for therapy?

A. Low level lasers have been used by doctors in hospitals and clinics in Europe on both humans and animals since the early 1970’s. In fact, the first studies reporting positive effects of laser on wound healing in rats were reported by the Hungarian researcher Andre Mester as early as 1968. In the United States, therapeutic lasers have been used by veterinarians since the late 1970’s. Just recently the U.S. FDA has given marketing approval to laser therapy devices for human use, beginning the trend to widespread use of LLLT in the United States.

Q. In simple terms, what does LLLT do?

A. A huge amount of research data has been collected on the effects of laser therapy (over 2000 double-blind studies) both in laboratory and clinical settings. The following excerpts demonstrate some of the most significant results: (Check the bibliography if you would like to do some in-depth reading.)

1. Wound healing is significantly improved by low level laser therapy, even non-healing wounds, thought to be due to the increased level of collagen brought about by laser treatment. Collagen, the chief constituent of connective tissue, is recognized as the most important ingredient in wound healing. See Dr. Andre F. Mester and Dr. Adam Mester, LLLT and Wound Healing, John Wiley and Sons, Ltd., 1989.

2. Increases in blood flow by means of capillary and arterial widening of the lumen of blood vessels, vasodilatation. See Dr. Toshiaki Kami, Effects of Low Power Diode Lasers, Annals of Plastic Surgery, Vol. 14, No. 3, March 1985. (Dr. Kami’s work also showed that the laser light significantly increased the formation of new capillary paths in treated areas, which resulted in increased circulation.)

3. Marked improvement in re-establishment of the lymphatic system after trauma, resulting in reduction of swelling. This is due to the evacuation of dirty proteins by the regenerated lymphatic vessels. (See Dr. P.C. Lieven, The Influence of Laser on the Lymphatic Systems, Presented at the American Society for Laser Medicine and Surgery, Eight Annual Meeting, Dallas, Texas 4/25-4/28, 1988)

4. Laser light stimulates release of the body’s own killing chemicals such as endorphins and enkephalins Facilitating natural, long lasting pain relief. Dr. Wolfgang Rauermeister, Director of Pain Control Center at Parkwood Hospital, Massachusetts, USA has provided the best explanation of these pain reduction capabilities:
“The laser light stimulates the release of the body’s own pain killing chemicals such as endorphins and enkephalins from the brain, adrenal glands, and other areas, thus facilitating long lasting pain relief.”

Low level laser therapy is an effective therapy, working in harmony with the body’s own healing and relieving mechanisms. There are no harmful side effects reported from laser therapy.

[alecashley]

number 2---"Increased blood flow and vessel dialation" this can be good? any insight as to why rlt still works inspite of increased blood flow and vessel dilation? i believe in rlt, but still wondering about #2

[Twickle Purple]

"Increased blood flow and vessel dilation"

That one gets alot of folks attention. Mine too.

All I can say is that there is most certainly more than what is perceived on the face of that simple statement.

There have been so many posts from committed users saying they are paler after the RLT that maybe what we need are those better working bloodvessels?

Once we get some good science done on RLT with Rosacea we'll know exactly why this is working for us.

In the meantime, there are plenty of members who have experience with RLT that have posted their results. Fut, is the most recent, going all the way back to Peter who began years and years ago. IowaDavid posts were what got me onto this with focus.

There is a lot of information available on LLLT, I've posted links to what I've found which is only a small portion of what is written on this topic. And there are many threads on the subject here on the forum that go way back. I post alot on it because I want to learn alot about it and I had plenty of questions. What I have read allowed me to conclude that this was a safe and beneficial way to treat my Rosacea (and eczema).

[Twickle Purple]

An LED and a laser device using 660nm wavelength light will create the same response in the body. The difference is coherent and non-coherent light.

Here's a copy and paste from this site (http://www.redlighthealing.com/facts.htm) that explains it succinctly:

Monochromatic single wavelength light can only be produced in two ways - Low Power/Cold Laser (coherent light) or with a powerful light-emitting diode, LED (non-coherent light). Although much of the low power laser research is directly applicable to the use of LED's, LED's non-coherent light is entirely safe.

Dr Tiina Karu, of the Laser Technology Centre of Russia, found in the late 80's that the non-coherent light (LED's) was found to be as effective as coherent light and without the risk associated with cold lasers.

[redhotoz]

I've made this thread a 'Sticky', as it is referred to so often. Thanks TP, your research is much appreciated!

Jen

[Twickle Purple]

I put this in another thread (http://forum.rosaceagroup.org/viewtopic.php?t=4360&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30), but I'll post it to this sticky too. It will help clarify the infrared misnnomer:

--

Red (or far red in the case of 660nm) falls in the (very) narrow visible light range. Infrared (which is not red at all) is invisible to the eye. Check out the 2 illustrations below. You will see the very large range within the infrared category.

LED therapy systems that I have seen which are near infrared have wavelengths that fall into the lower end of the near infrared range.

http://www.anniroc.com/TP/wavelength.jpg

http://www.anniroc.com/TP/spectrum-expanded.jpg


A little bit about infrared in general. (http://imagers.gsfc.nasa.gov/ems/infrared.html)

Infrared light lies between the visible and microwave portions of the electromagnetic spectrum. Infrared light has a range of wavelengths, just like visible light has wavelengths that range from red light to violet. "Near infrared" light is closest in wavelength to visible light and "far infrared" is closer to the microwave region of the electromagnetic spectrum. The longer, far infrared wavelengths are about the size of a pin head and the shorter, near infrared ones are the size of cells, or are microscopic.

Far infrared waves are thermal. In other words, we experience this type of infrared radiation every day in the form of heat! The heat that we feel from sunlight, a fire, a radiator or a warm sidewalk is infrared. The temperature-sensitive nerve endings in our skin can detect the difference between inside body temperature and outside skin temperature.

Infrared light is even used to heat food sometimes - special lamps that emit thermal infrared waves are often used in fast food restaurants!

Shorter, near infrared waves are not hot at all - in fact you cannot even feel them. These shorter wavelengths are the ones used by your TV's remote control.

How can we "see" using the Infrared?

Since the primary source of infrared radiation is heat or thermal radiation, any object which has a temperature radiates in the infrared. Even objects that we think of as being very cold, such as an ice cube, emit infrared. When an object is not quite hot enough to radiate visible light, it will emit most of its energy in the infrared. For example, hot charcoal may not give off light but it does emit infrared radiation which we feel as heat. The warmer the object, the more infrared radiation it emits.

Humans, at normal body temperature, radiate most strongly in the infrared at a wavelength of about 10 microns. (A micron is the term commonly used in astronomy for a micrometer or one millionth of a meter.)

[lisa14go]

HI i am new to this forum. I've got severe rosacea that i control with laser treatements with excellant results. i moved to a new city and laser treatments here are terribly expensive.

Can anyone recommend an LED for use at home? i am reading the posts and see that certains lights and wavelengths are recommended but not brand names. i am soo afraid to pay monies and never receive a product or pay for a very expensive flashlight.

Has anyone had good results with LED out there and can recommend a reliable brand that i can purchase?

[Twickle Purple]

HI i am new to this forum. I've got severe rosacea that i control with laser treatements with excellant results. i moved to a new city and laser treatments here are terribly expensive.

Can anyone recommend an LED for use at home? i am reading the posts and see that certains lights and wavelengths are recommended but not brand names. i am soo afraid to pay monies and never receive a product or pay for a very expensive flashlight.

Has anyone had good results with LED out there and can recommend a reliable brand that i can purchase?


If you've read the posts then you will see many brand names are mentioned. Why the second post on this thread lists quite a few, with links too.

Take the time to become familiar with what folks are saying about RLT and you can get a better sense of what would work best for you. There is a wealth of personal experience posted in this section. All for you. :D

[kohlrabi_Croce]

Hi Sarah,

The decision of what wavelength to use comes down to personal choice based on need. I have no acne, just flushing and minor P+P, so I went with the 660nm wavelength. I had read enough on the combo of 660nm+880nm that I knew I would want to try this too, but not right away.

The RLT does not remove my telangiectasia, for that I have Gemini done at my Derms. This has a traumatic effect on my face for a few days but is worth it for the good results I've seen so far. So I have laser (Gemini) and use RLT. While I'm really swollen from the Gemini I have not used the RLT. Once it started to subside though I was right back on it. I've posted this under my Gemini Tx thread under photos. I also use MetroCream and was on a 3 month course of doxycyline which I've just ended.

I tried to include as much as I could for links to all the manufacturers that I'd come across so far (there are probably lots more) and the Web sites that I'd found and read on this 'technology' before I made my decision.

I use different units than other members from what I've read posted so far. It seems that the most popular are Elixa (LED), Dermalux (flourescent tubes), AcneLamp (LED), and home built. I've talked about the ones that I have in their own links. The big Dimalux is really good and it is also the best demonstration that these babies don't burn. The smaller unit that I'm using has a programmable console and a couple different applicator types (single LED and multi-LED heads). So both require a more or less dedicated set-up.

I hope that helps.
Twickle Purple

I'm thinking of getting this Elixa unit so I don't have to build one, and because I'd like to try a
mix of IR and NIR now.

I bought from this seller before, and think he's fine. Does anybody have experience with this
unit though? here's the url:

http://www.elixa.com/light/facial.htm

TP, someday I want to get this Gemini treatment, but don't they have something that won't make
your face swell up?

Thanks!

KC

[Twickle Purple]

Hi KC,

I've got that unit but it's the DPL brand named one:

http://www.light4beauty.com/products.html

It's funny that they show it on someone's knee now because that is what I use it for, aches and pains and sore muscles. It works so well I'd bought two, but I've given one to an elderly neighbour with very arthritic hands. They love it. His wife has starting to use it for facial application too, but I haven't heard anything more on that.

This particular unit has been posted about for a while, I think it was even the first to be linked to when RLT was brought up. Anyway, I had no luck with it on my face. I can only guess that the ratio of NIR to RED LEDs is too high. I did not like it at all. I gave it a go on two occasions just to be sure. But, from what I've read here, others do love it. And the design is very convenient! I had mine set up on a desk and just leaned into it til it was done.

It runs for 9 minutes and beeps every minute so you have an idea of where timing is. It comes with stick on eye shields that were too small for my eyes, and they stuck directly onto the delicate eyelid skin! I didn't like that at all. A DPL rep and the site write up says it's safe to use the unit without the shields, just don't keep your eyes opened during the session. This is how I do all my RLT, I just close my eyes and use no eye coverage.

I just got this from Elixa (great customer service):

http://www.elixa.com/light/lightworks.htm

I like it because I can use it while I'm at my desk and it runs for a good while. The paddle has RED on one side and NIR on the other. I wanted something convenient and this is somewhat easier to hold than the LEDMAN handheld 'brick' (it's exactly like Elixa's) and the Tanda unit (http://www.tanda.com/show_info.php?page_id=6) which beeps every 30 seconds and drives me up the wall. The only convenience of the Tanda is that it is rechargeable so no cables, it's a bit like holding on to an electric shaver. The real downside of the Tanda is the amount of contact that must be made or the light will go off -- this is tedious on angular areas.

I should add, because some idiot is alluding to an agenda, that I buy all these units myself and pay for them out of my own pocket. I have no affiliation with any of these companies. I am disgusted that I am compelled to put this disclaimer in and shame on the cynical arseholes that start this type of rumour. And for the last fellow that PM'd me: expense is a relative thing. I can afford to do it, I want to do it, so I do it.

Sorry, KC, back to your post... Regarding Gemini, I swelled grotesquely and someone else had posted that they looked the same after their treatment, but I've read others' comments that said didn't swell nearly as bad. So I think it comes down to the person getting the treatment and the person giving the treatment. You'll never know til you try it.

I did it twice and it knocked out my permanent redness, I wouldn't say it did miracles for my telangiectasia though. There are days when I see it's all still there, but my face isn't red anymore which is nice. Two was all I will do. The derm was upfront that each session will show less improvement than the one prior. Which makes sense, and the downside wasn't worth it to me. Maybe if I develop permanent redness again I would consider it. But the RLT stops that from happening.

Cheers,
TP

[kohlrabi_Croce]

Hi KC,

I've got that unit but it's the DPL brand named one:

http://www.light4beauty.com/products.html

It's funny that they show it on someone's knee now because that is what I use it for, aches and pains and sore muscles. It works so well I'd bought two, but I've given one to an elderly neighbour with very arthritic hands. They love it. His wife has starting to use it for facial application too, but I haven't heard anything more on that.

This particular unit has been posted about for a while, I think it was even the first to be linked to when RLT was brought up. Anyway, I had no luck with it on my face. I can only guess that the ratio of NIR to RED LEDs is too high. I did not like it at all. I gave it a go on two occasions just to be sure. But, from what I've read here, others do love it. And the design is very convenient! I had mine set up on a desk and just leaned into it til it was done.

It runs for 9 minutes and beeps every minute so you have an idea of where timing is. It comes with stick on eye shields that were too small for my eyes, and they stuck directly onto the delicate eyelid skin! I didn't like that at all. A DPL rep and the site write up says it's safe to use the unit without the shields, just don't keep your eyes opened during the session. This is how I do all my RLT, I just close my eyes and use no eye coverage.

I just got this from Elixa (great customer service):

http://www.elixa.com/light/lightworks.htm

I like it because I can use it while I'm at my desk and it runs for a good while. The paddle has RED on one side and NIR on the other. I wanted something convenient and this is somewhat easier to hold than the LEDMAN handheld 'brick' (it's exactly like Elixa's) and the Tanda unit (http://www.tanda.com/show_info.php?page_id=6) which beeps every 30 seconds and drives me up the wall. The only convenience of the Tanda is that it is rechargeable so no cables, it's a bit like holding on to an electric shaver. The real downside of the Tanda is the amount of contact that must be made or the light will go off -- this is tedious on angular areas.

I should add, because some idiot is alluding to an agenda, that I buy all these units myself and pay for them out of my own pocket. I have no affiliation with any of these companies. I am disgusted that I am compelled to put this disclaimer in and shame on the cynical arseholes that start this type of rumour. And for the last fellow that PM'd me: expense is a relative thing. I can afford to do it, I want to do it, so I do it.

Sorry, KC, back to your post... Regarding Gemini, I swelled grotesquely and someone else had posted that they looked the same after their treatment, but I've read others' comments that said didn't swell nearly as bad. So I think it comes down to the person getting the treatment and the person giving the treatment. You'll never know til you try it.

I did it twice and it knocked out my permanent redness, I wouldn't say it did miracles for my telangiectasia though. There are days when I see it's all still there, but my face isn't red anymore which is nice. Two was all I will do. The derm was upfront that each session will show less improvement than the one prior. Which makes sense, and the downside wasn't worth it to me. Maybe if I develop permanent redness again I would consider it. But the RLT stops that from happening.

Cheers,
TP

Hi TP,

You didn;t have any luck with it? But it's supposed to penetrate deeper.....
Oh well, I think it's worth it to try it. I got plenty of cheap NIR lights around here :).

Sorry, I better go back and read old posts about it. The 9 minute warning thing sounds very
annoying though! I'm an adult, I don;t need the device to tell me when to stop.....sigh,
at least it's cheap.

Thanks for the other recommendations too, but I'd rather have something I don't have
to hold. The tanda unit would be good to take to work with me, but it's another
$300! Man....well maybe someday.

As for the guys criticizing TP about this, go away. TP and I have known each other
a while, and I trust her motivations, ok!

I have this problems with redness. Maybe someday I can get something done at
the dermatologists, thanks for the info TP!

KC

[lobsterface]

I am new to the group here. I have had rosacea (P+P) since 19 yrs old and really wasn't dxd until I was 21. I am on Finacea only. No antibiotics. Anyways, I am considering the red light therapies. I know someone asked which were good to buy from, and I know that can be vast depending on what a person needs and how much, etc. My question is, are you dissatisfied with any particular company, because I would like to steer clear of any bad customer service, and also...do you know what the effects of amber or yellow LED are? I have been researching this, and really I am not findings anything that is particular as I do on the claims for results on red and blue LED. I would appreciate any info you have to offer on this.

[phlika29]

Hi and welcome to the group

With regards the yellow LED question you may like to look at this thread (http://rosacea-support.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=238) on the rosacea support forum.

With regards staying away from certain companies I have never really heard anyone having bad experiences. Perhaps a little disappointed with build quality but thats about it.

There is indeed a large amount of information to get your heard around but if you take the time to read through all the stickies (mainly put together very kindly by Twickle Purple) then you will be halfway there.yes:

[lobsterface]

Thank you phlika29 for referring me to that thread. I will be looking into that a little further. Some things I have read are talking about yellow LED being good for lymphatics...I want to look further into that. I've read so many of the threads on the LLLT and love what I am hearing. I think it's gonna be worth my while to get a red LED unit and try it out long term. I'm also going to take pictures, and I'll put them up on here. I saw a lot of people asking for pictures of results, but no one left any that I could see, and if anyone can understand the embarrassment of rosacea, it should be the members of this site! Thanks again!!

Lobsterface
:colors:

[BMBM]

Hi - I like the look of this unit and the fact that it is portable is just what I need!

I've searched the forums but cannot find any further info. I just wondered if anyone is using it and are they finding it useful?

Thanks

BMBM



I just got this from Elixa (great customer service):

http://www.elixa.com/light/lightworks.htm